Tale of the 44 SBH: the bitter and the sweet

[44man]

About as good an explanation you can get!
I have shot softer, 50-50 but found they scatter all over paper if PB so I shot the same boolits with GC's since Babore sent me both styles. That really helped and he told me to oven harden them too. I was rid of almost all fliers then and got good groups. They measured 18 to 20 BHN but it did not change the ductile qualities and I had true deer grenades! WOW, as much a mess as my soft nose .500.
I tried softer boolits in the .44 and they also need a GC but I still had fliers so I annealed the GC's and it about cured the problem. Must make the GC grip better.
Anyway there is a lot you can do with what you choose to use. I never say never and only testing and trying things out of the box can work.
I don't like the extra work of oven hardening or annealing checks but sometimes there is no choice.
I did crimp tests from full profile to hard roll, all the way to none needing to shoot single shot and never found a difference worth a hoot in groups. All you need is to hold under recoil. I had cases that still had crimp after shooting and you don't want that. It is another size die.
The worst I ever shot were factory cast loads with full profile in .454. One shot would tie up a Freedom and two tied up a SRH. The very hard crimp did not make up for no tension. I fear tapping boolits back in loaded rounds with a dowel. Imagine a proud primer on the recoil plate?

[44man]

44Man I admit I am surprised about the lube differences on accuracy. Are you doing any powder coating?

Yes and a softer lube always worked best. I have piles of lube sticks in a drawer, most commercial stuff. Felix, MML, Satan's lube, LBT soft and magnum all work best. LBT hard opened groups but CR did a decent job but most of my boolits are lubed by hand before the Lee push through and CR will raise a blister. I use a lube-sizer now and then but prefer a Lee die.
I never liked Alox. I have not powder coated since what I do has worked fine. I do see the merit in it though. Someday!
You can go through everything but in the end, the most damage to your shooting ability will point to the brass case. You can sort new brass out by POI and just load those that shot in a group. Notice a BR shooter uses the same five cases and loads at the shooting bench.
All the little things add to your accuracy. Then you get too old to make use of it!

[CTone03]

I don't like the extra work of oven hardening or annealing checks but sometimes there is no choice.

I'm using WW and water casting. What do you recommend for oven hardening?

DougGuy, excellent summary!

[tenx]

i have an older sbh (1978-79 vintage) that likes the lyman 429421 sized .432 with a moderate charge of unique. pachmayr grips fill in the space behind the trigger guard and my knuckle is grateful. tired eyes have almost made it mandatory for me to use a red dot so i have drilled and tapped mine for a weigand mount and use a ultra dot sight. never had mush trouble finding a good load, got lucky and mine shoots most anything well. i enjoy shooting it a lot as long as i have the pachmayr grips on it. down right painfull otherwise.

[44man]

I'm using WW and water casting. What do you recommend for oven hardening?

DougGuy, excellent summary!

With plain WW I just water drop but 50-50 needed, if I remember, 425° for an hour. Written down somewhere here. Then just a few days before loading.
I use a stainless colander in the kitchen oven and set the whole thing in a 5 gal bucket of water. I don't want to try and pour hot boolits off a sheet pan.

[CTone03]

Good call on the colander/water bucket. I appreciate the info.

I've just finished loading 18 more of the 310s which are lubed with the Ben's Red. I went with cci300s as well, and backed off the crimp a bit. Regarding the crimp, I noticed this morning that fired cases still have enough of a crimp-set that a bullet wouldn't start without buggering up the GC; I had to bell the mouth (slightly). Neck tension was perfect for 14; the other four are separated.

Hopefully today I'll get the chance to shoot them side by side with the 45/45/10 loads with cci350s. I'm definitely going to try the fed150, 296, and Hornady dies as soon as time allows.

[44man]

Good call on the colander/water bucket. I appreciate the info.

I've just finished loading 18 more of the 310s which are lubed with the Ben's Red. I went with cci300s as well, and backed off the crimp a bit. Regarding the crimp, I noticed this morning that fired cases still have enough of a crimp-set that a bullet wouldn't start without buggering up the GC; I had to bell the mouth (slightly). Neck tension was perfect for 14; the other four are separated.

Hopefully today I'll get the chance to shoot them side by side with the 45/45/10 loads with cci350s. I'm definitely going to try the fed150, 296, and Hornady dies as soon as time allows.

You will have trouble seating even if cases are straight so you DO need a slight flare. That is different then seeing actual crimp left. You STILL need a little flare. You need to just set a boolit straight and then seat SLOWLY. I have had friends here that thought a loading press needed to be run at 186,000 MPS. One was a gun writer too. I had to slam his brakes on.
Ben's Red worked like a champ in my rifles but I think it needs some lanolin in a revolver. It is very slippery and can break a boolit loose too soon. Someday I will work on it. No dis to Ben, he works hard. I hope he is still a friend. But you need some "sticky" in a revolver. Lanolin seems to be best. I bet some added to Ben's would be wonderful. Cheap from Majestic Mountain Sage or From Nature With Love. I once got a 2# jug for $8. Only need a TBLS or so. Add when much cooler. takes little heat to melt in, Boiling water temps.
Be aware you can negate one good thing with one bad choice. It is near a lifetime of work for me.
It is best to follow everything.

[fivefang]

amen to that ,bought my firs in'55,6.5".44 Ruger #11114,Lyman 429215, 27.5 Hercules 2400, have now SSRH, 7.5", a 7.5" 3scr .44FT,a Purple 3scr.SBH,7.5", 20.5 gr WC 820 works well in all them

[ironhead7544]

Concerning the Bisley grip, I was also skeptical. I had a 44 Special Flat Top and was shooting Elmer's load. A friend brought out his Bisley Flat Top. Big difference. The standard grip hit my finger pretty hard. The Bisley was just a push, no pain. To me, it is butt ugly and feels a bit weird in the hand, but it does reduce the recoil.

[CTone03]

Well, my testing today was inconclusive on paper. The 310s with 45/45/10 were terrible for one group, and 1 1/2" for another. The loads with Ben's Red were 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" - but had noticeably less recoil. I want to completely rework the load to bring it down to 1,200; but I've heard that that the C430-310-RF prefers to be driven hard. Any thoughts? Are there 300+ grain bullets that are stable at ~1,100?

Soon I want to try cast 240/250s again. I also noticed today that several of the screws that hold the grip frame on were loose. Time to go back over the gun and square everything away.

[44man]

The 310 does need some velocity. I believe mine is around 1320 fps. I get 1316 with the LBT 320 but never checked the lee.
I tried shooting heavy boolits slow (1100 fps) and got 2' shotgun patterns at 50 yards. If you want slower, best to drop to 240 and 250 gr. 240 is a golden spot with a .44, I never liked lighter bullets either.
Make some Felix lube or get lanolin and add some to Ben's. Lube is SOOOO important you would not believe.

[DougGuy]

The Lee 310 I use is soft, cast 50/50+2% with Felix lube and has good accuracy out of a 7 1/2" barrel, crimped in the bottom groove over 17.0gr H2400 powder, WLP primers. Velocity is 1180 ~ 1200fps. This is not a max load by any means but I hit on a good combination that woks well in this SBH. Others' mileage may vary!

The long flat nosed designs with a lot of the weight in front of the driving bands and a shorter bearing surface DO NOT stabilize unless flung about as hard as you can push them from a SBH. The Lee 310 has a shorter fatter nose and longer sides for a longer bearing surface what bearing this has on stability I don't really know but I can shoot them much more accurately than the long flat nose, at 1200 fps.

[Markbo]

Doug, I have been told recently by a couple of gents who's opinions I respect that WFN bullets will not stabilize over longer range as well as a LFN nor will they stabilize even at shorter range (out to 100 yds) unless pushed hard. Is this your experience as well? I have an FA 97 in .41 mag that Id like to shoot heavier than 210gr boolits but OAL is limited.

[DougGuy]

Doug, I have been told recently by a couple of gents who's opinions I respect that WFN bullets will not stabilize over longer range as well as a LFN nor will they stabilize even at shorter range (out to 100 yds) unless pushed hard. Is this your experience as well? I have an FA 97 in .41 mag that Id like to shoot heavier than 210gr boolits but OAL is limited.

I think this is probably a true scenario with the long range but I don't know about short range. It's working good for me at hunting distances, 35-40yds @1200fps from a SBH. The Lee 310 is probably only good to 100yds in a rifle. Any of those heavy flat nose boolits will work better the faster they are pushed. These things are like little bulldozers, when you want to do tremendous damage, it don't have to go that fast. That's why I like them and I like them 50/50+2% soft. No hollowpoints needed with this load. I'm probably right at or right above the velocity where they start getting unstable. I don't think I have much wiggle room there, another 50 ~ 75 fps slower might have them opening up groups like shooting buckshot.

[21Glock]

I've started casting for my new(since July) Classic S&W 29 .44 Mag. 6.5" blued gun. I used to shoot competition with one back in the mid 80s. This is about the 3rd or 4th one I've had and will never sell this one.
I'm using the LEE SWC 240gr. mold, cast from wheel weights, water dropped and lubed with Liquid Alox. If do my part, the gun will group like a dream!
I'm running speeds at around 1150 1300 fps and NO LEADING with this set up.
Couldn't be happier with what this classic N frame work of art is turning out for me.

[nagantguy]

Thank you all for the wonderful read and great insight and info. DougGuy, .44man thank you for so freely sharing your knowledge. I went through my own accuracy trials with SBH'S and a few rifles last hear the Lee 310 pcd was the clear winner, cast hard and driven fast and powder coated. Brass is the weak link/ winning combination. I tend to favor h110, but milage varies. Just bought a jug of 296 and I'll plan to test it out again. I'd like to nominate this thread as a sticky! !!!! Also to the op, way to stick it out and make your dad's gun live up to its potential! !! He'd be proud of ya, I am!!!

[44man]

Doug, I have been told recently by a couple of gents who's opinions I respect that WFN bullets will not stabilize over longer range as well as a LFN nor will they stabilize even at shorter range (out to 100 yds) unless pushed hard. Is this your experience as well? I have an FA 97 in .41 mag that Id like to shoot heavier than 210gr boolits but OAL is limited.

That is just not true about a WFN. It is entirely spin and stability. Each and every boolit will come in if right. I think a full wad cutter can go the distance if the gun is perfect. The problem with a wad cutter and semi wad cutter is cylinder steerage without wiping the shoulders off.
I hate the Keith but darn it if it enters the cone and bore straight, it will shoot. The ogive does nothing at all. I don't think meplat size has any affect if you meet velocity and spin along with the cylinder "clock."

[Markbo]

So 44man wfn, lfn, keith - any/all can shot good from moderate to hot rod if the gun is right? I am trying to find a heavier than 210 bullet for my FA 97 in .41 mag. I am sure that gun is right.

Nagantguy...you lost me...what is a pcd???

[44man]

[QUOTE=Markbo;3486387]So 44man wfn, lfn, keith - any/all can shot good from moderate to hot rod if the gun is right? I am trying to find a heavier than 210 bullet for my FA 97 in .41 mag. I am sure that gun is right.
Yes, my favorite was the 429421 in my first .44's. Also the 358156 in the .357. I believe the gun has to be right first.
Crazy thought that older guns were fit better but darn it is hard to match even old rifles. Just try to beat a 1917 Enfield today. Or a Springfield. My 1919 Swede will make you eat dirt.
Many hated a savage but they are love all the way.

[CTone03]

I'm using the LEE SWC 240gr. mold, cast from wheel weights, water dropped and lubed with Liquid Alox. If do my part, the gun will group like a dream! I'm running speeds at around 1150 1300 fps and NO LEADING with this set up.

That gives me hope that I can get mine dialed in with the 240 Lee SWC. I'm going to slow mine down to 1,100 or so. Leading in mine hasn't been a problem; just grouping.