.223 loads.....with j words

[newton]

I know it may put a sour taste in some people's mouth to talk about the other kind of bullets, but I am curious.

With me drawing to an end with my nephews .243 and sons 308, I plan on working on a new to me gun/caliber - Remington 700 in .223. Its a 24" barrel and 1:12 twist.

For now I am just going to use 55 grain jacketed bullets. Soft points to be exact.

I just am hoping to gain some insight from you guys as I spend 99% of my time on here as far as reloading goes, and would rather not join another site to ask these questions. I have searched a bunch, and have found a lot of loads and such, but with the popularity of the .223 being in the AR platform it gets hard to weed through a lot of it. Especially since a lot of those guns have the faster twists, shorter barrels, and have to account for reliable operation.

My biggest hope is to land on a IMR 4320 load that will work good. I have enough of it to keep my busy for a while, and I found a good load for it with both of the before mentioned rifles. I think a lot of guys would agree that having a single powder is nice, although it might not always be the best. But I am hopeful.

I have found some published data with 4320 in the .223. I have an older Hornady manual but am pretty sure it is going off of old 4320 burn characteristics - or Hodgdon is really cautious with their recipes.

Here is what I have found in published data:

Current - Hodgdon site:
23.5 - 26.1

Current - Sierra (but only in the AR15 load data, does not list in their bolt action data):
25.5 - 26.7

Older - Hornady manual(circa 1983):
24.0 - 28.0

I emailed Sierra to ask if it was ok to use the AR15 data for the Bolt action. I am pretty sure that their data is geared toward shorter barrels and cycling the action, but I would "think" that chamber pressures would be the same.

I will eventually load cast for it, but do not have the funds to go down that road properly yet. Any help is appreciated.

[Larry Gibson]

The data you listed for 4320 is still valid. Just keep in mind that the current loads for the .223 Rem adhere to the SAAMI MAP. The SAAMI MAP is lower than the MAP (NATO and CIP) for the 5.56 NATO. That's why you will see different levels of loads for each. The older loads were for the 5,56 NATO MAP with M193 (55 gr FMJ) ammunition.

With your M700 with 12" twist you can shoot 5.56 MAP level loads w/o a problem. Just work up to them as always and stop at any indication of pressure problems. One other problem you will encounter is bullet choice. A bullet of 52 - 55 gr is the best all around choice but some of the new BT 55 gr bullets are too long to stabilize in the 12" twist; the Sierra 55 gr BK being an example. All of the older SP/HP 55 gr bullets will do just fine.

I've been shooting a M700V (24" barrel w/12" twist) since '72. I've killed a bajillion squirrels, rabbits, rock chucks, PDs, magpies, crows and coyotes with it. Even have managed several deer and a couple elk. Also won a couple bench rest matches back when factory rifles were actually used. With the old Speer 52 gr Gold Match bullets it would shoot in the .2s. Long, for varmint shooting, ago I found the Hornady 55 gr SX over 26.5 gr H335 was an excellent load in not only m M700V but several other .223s I was using. It has become my standard load for 12 & 14" twist .223s. It also is an excellent load under a Speer 52 gr HP in gas guns with 9"+ twists.

I've put so many rounds through my M700V that the barrel was set back to 23". It is good for about one more PD shoot and then it will get a new barrel.

Larry Gibson

[aspangler]

My weatherby Vangard 223 and several other guns with various twists likes the 55 gr Sierra GK in sp or hp. You can't put enough Varget in the case and seat the bullet to get into trouble. I like and every thing else likes 25.1 grains Varget. That load works with almost any weight bullet in the 40-55 gr range. Try it you'll like it. Use this load at your own risk. (this is for the lawyers)

[newton]

Thanks Larry.

I guess I was just confused as to the top end, especially the older Hornady data. So they might have been basing their data on the NATO MAP? They really didn't mention anything other than they were shooting the loads in a M700. I've not loaded for this gun before so I'll for sure start low and work up. Do you get the typical bolt action pressure signs with a .223, or are there others that are to be watched for? Seems that I read more about pierced primers and gasses coming back out of the primer pocket than I do hard to open bolt/hard to extract.

I figured that 55 grain would be top end. The bullets are mostly flat based/beveled. I wanted as heavy as I could in case the need arises to clean ticks from behind a deer's ear..... Not that I want this thread to turn into a back and forth about adequacy, but I should say that I do not intend for this to be a "deer" rifle - but understand the power of a .223 is capable.

Main thing is to get a nice target/coyote load for it. We have a lot of them around and I need to start thinning them out.

I think I do have a small amount of H4895 left, so If the 4320 does not perform I'll try it. I have read a LOT of people saying that Varget(similar to 4320) is too slow for the .223, and others that love it. I just have to wonder if they mainly have tried it in AR platforms with the accompanying short barrels and faster twists.

I have always read that the slower powders, for a given cartridge, are best used with longer barrels and heavier bullets(for said barrel/twist). So in my mind, Varget/4320/748/BL-C(2) would be a preferred choice with 55 grains in this gun.

[newton]

My weatherby Vangard 223 and several other guns with various twists likes the 55 gr Sierra GK in sp or hp. You can't put enough Varget in the case and seat the bullet to get into trouble. I like and every thing else likes 25.1 grains Varget. That load works with almost any weight bullet in the 40-55 gr range. Try it you'll like it. Use this load at your own risk. (this is for the lawyers)

Well, seeing how 25.1 falls right in the middle of Sierra's range for that powder/bullet, I don't think you'll have to worry about lawyers coming around anytime soon.

Ever but these across a chronograph? All three data sources I listed used a 24" barrel, only Sierra uses a 1:14" twist - the other two are 1:12".

I plan on running everything across my chronograph when working up, just curious if others with the 24" barrel find the same velocities as the manuals state.

[aspangler]

Well, seeing how 25.1 falls right in the middle of Sierra's range for that powder/bullet, I don't think you'll have to worry about lawyers coming around anytime soon.

Ever but these across a chronograph? All three data sources I listed used a 24" barrel, only Sierra uses a 1:14" twist - the other two are 1:12".

I plan on running everything across my chronograph when working up, just curious if others with the 24" barrel find the same velocities as the manuals state.

Across the chronograph mine in the Weatherby with 24" barrel 1-12 twist is average 3095 fps. 16' AR with 1-7" chrono's at 2675 fps. Ar has 1/2" groups at 100. Weatherby shoots 1 hole groups at 100.

[newton]

Across the chronograph mine in the Weatherby with 24" barrel 1-12 twist is average 3095 fps. 16' AR with 1-7" chrono's at 2675 fps. Ar has 1/2" groups at 100. Weatherby shoots 1 hole groups at 100.

Nice, thanks very much.

[Larry Gibson]

I have always read that the slower powders, for a given cartridge, are best used with longer barrels and heavier bullets(for said barrel/twist). So in my mind, Varget/4320/748/BL-C(2) would be a preferred choice with 55 grains in this gun.

That's what every one says and it's correct in some cases, other case not. The 223 Rem is one of those "not" cases. I just recently tested those Sierra 55 gr BKs over 26 gr Varget (100% load density) in my Savage Comp M112 with 26" barrel. Velocity was 3145 fps and yes, accuracy was excellent but that rifle always shoots any quality bullet excellently. Any 52 - 55 gr bullet over 26.5 gr H335 in my 20" Colt AR with 9" twist pushes the same velocity. That H335 load gets higher velocity with as good or better accuracy out of the 23" barrel of my M700V and the 22" barrel of my M70 XTR.

Point is in the smaller 223 Rem case you can not get enough of those slower extruded powders such as Varget, 4064, 4320, etc. under a 55 gr or less bullet to reach the same psi's as you can with the ball powders, including 748 and BLC2.

I have measured the psi's of quite a few .223 and 5.56 loads out of the 21" barrel of my TC Contender Barrel. It has a tight chamber to SAAMI specs. Under the 55 gr SX 27 gr BLC2 ran 3175 fps at 56,500 psi(M43). Same bullet over 26.5 H335 ran 3193 at 57,200 psi(M43). Same bullet over 26 gr AA2230 ran 3212 fps at 59,500 psi. Most LC M193 ran right at 3200 - 3230 fps at 55 - 60,000 psi(M43). Bought a box of Winchester M193 White Box (WCC 07) that was supposed to be "good stuff"; it ran 3351 fps at 65,700 psi(M43)!!!! Most US M855 "Green Tip" runs 3000 fps +/- at 60 - 64,000 psi(M43) in the SAAMI chamber and 59 - 62,000 psi in a military spec chamber.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Checking my old records on the M700V before setting the barrel back and velocities only measured with an Oehler chronograph with the 55 gr SX bullet 26 gr H4895 ran 3240 fps. 27.5 gr BLC ran 3205 fps. The 26.5 gr H335 was running 3205 fps with consistent .5" or less 5 shot groups. The accuracy load (.2 - .3 moa with 5 shot groups) was 21.7 gr H4198 at 3087 fps.

Might add just for info that my match load in the Savage Comp M112 with 26" barrel is the Sierra 69 MK over 26 gr Varget (close to 100% load density). That runs 2960 fps at 52,300 psi. I also use the 75 gr Hornady Match over the same load. It runs 2945 fps but I have not pressure tested it yet.

Larry Gibson

[newton]

Is that Savage a 1:12 twist?

[newton]

My first goal is to find a load that will group 1/2"-3/4" at 100 yards and be around 3000 fps. That's just my goal, not saying that that exact speed or anything. I just feel I will have a decent trajectory with at least that velocity.

I know that's far from top end for a .223, but my range is only 200 yards at the moment and I doubt the area I am in I'll ever be shooting past 300 yards. Plus, I might be naive on this part, but I would think that it would be easy on brass and on my gun.

Realistic?

[newton]

One more question while I am thinking about it. How many reloads could I get from the brass - on average. I figure each one would be different, and the intensity of the loads will effect life, but I am curious the average age. I read a lot of guys just chuck them after 5, but I have also heard that on other calibers/brass that I get WAY more reloads than that.

[newton]

I got a reply back from Sierra on the use of 4320. I am not sure how to interpret it though. The question was why they used it in the AR platform and not the bolt action, second question is what I was mainly interested in so at least I know I can use the same data. Just wont be seeing the same velocities.

We used 4320 in the AR because normally IMR 4320 is pretty bulky and therefore uses a great deal of interior room pretty much negating maximum pressure loads especially with the new long heavy match bullets commonly used in the AR platforms.
And yes, you can use AR data for bolt action guns with complete satisfaction.
Rich

[Larry Gibson]

Is that Savage a 1:12 twist?

My Savage Comp has a 9" twist. My M700V and M70 XTR had 12" twists. My Contender test barrel also has a 12" twist.

Getting 1/2 - 3/4 moa is completely realistic with that rifle.

I NS the cases I use and FL resize every 8 - 10 firings in a RCBS X-die. I started out with 200 TW cases and they lasted until I set the barrel back which was at around 9,000 - 10,000 rounds. That's 45+ firings per case. I had tracked them through 2 FL sizings and then gave up and just kept using them only FL sizing after that when chambering got harder than I liked. Probably 35 - 40 of those firings were with the full powered H335 loads. I never lost a case for any reason and never annealed them either.

I have 100 other LC cases I used for the milder accuracy loads. They are still in use in the M700V. I prepped 200 new LC cases after setting back the barrel (in 1987) and they are still in use w/o a loss of any kind.

I also have 200 match prepped LC cases I use in the Savage. I just loaded them for the 9th time, again w/o any loss.

I use a Lee Target loader or a Bonanza Benchrest die to NS the cases.

Even in my other .223s (M70, ARs, Contender and others over the years) case life has never been a problem and ceased to be a consideration for me a long time ago.

Larry Gibson

[phonejack]

With Varget, I used 25.0 with 55-80 grn. bullets

[5Shot]

Have not used 4320, but have had great results with H335. I would think you would get over 3K easy, since I get over 3K with 60grn Vmax's and a 20" barrel.

[tsubaki]

With the 1:12" twist you should to be able to get away with most any bullet that is .800" and shorter.
Both of mine shoot 60gr Nosler Partitions as accurate of any 55gr I had been reloading.

[newton]

I've been reading more on peoples "accuracy" loads and whenever someone lists their velocity it is generally well above 3000fps. I know that barrel harmonics and such play a huge part in a bullets accuracy, but is this high velocity just something people are after for trajectory/hunting, or does 55 grain bullets stabilize better in the 1:12" twist with a higher velocity? Just a curiosity question really.

[Larry Gibson]

As I stated earlier for a nominal weight of 55 gr stability depends on the length of the bullet. A M193 55 gr FMJBT with a length of .752 is marginally stable at 3100 fps. A 55 gr SX at .693 length is stable at 2000 fps. The Sierra BK at .828 length is not stable at 3200 fps. All in the 12" twist.

Larry Gibson

[FullTang]

4320 will work fine, and shouldn't really limit the accuracy of your gun, but it won't be as efficient or cost-effective as some other powders (I like 2200 and similar powders for this reason.) 1 in 12 rifling is inherently very good for standard 55 gr bullets, and should be even better for lighter bullets, though you'll really want to see about something faster burning if you get into the lighter varmint bullets.
As for the brass, I really like Lee collet dies for neck-only sizing; if you're only shooting out of one gun (and it's not an autoloader), this will give you great accuracy and much longer case life---no problem getting over 10 reloads per case, and you never have to lube anything.