Fast Powder Load Development for Rifles

[newton]

I've long been a fan of Unique and Red Dot, not to mention other known Alliant powders, for plinking rounds in my rifles. In fact, it looks like I am going to be adding another caliber to the list, if not another one after that. However, as most guys know Unique and Red Dot(and other Alliant powders) are popular and come and go quite often over the last few years as many have noticed. I got my fair share last time they showed up, and plan on always keeping an eye out, but it has got me to thinking.

I know there are those of you who have worked up loads with the other "fast" powders that Hodgdon came out with, which some say to compete with Alliant powders. But I am guessing because of their relatively new status they just don't have the same following, and along with that are less people who have developed proven loads - sticking to the already tested ones. I do find it interesting that Hodgdon does list two subsonic loads with a couple of their fast powders for use in the 308 and 223 - no doubt to gain some market share because of the two calibers popularity.

So here is my curiosity. I could get on here and search, and ask about particular calibers and particular powders, but I wanted to be more generic - yet more specific. When those of you who have developed what you deem safe loads, in your guns, using the fast powders other than the "load" (Red Dot and Unique), what do you look for in terms of safety?

Searching(and common sense) will tell you that things can go wrong VERY quickly when using fast powders. But at the same time, someone took the chance to try those fast powders at one point in time, and seeing how they are not published loads by the actual maker, they were more than likely developed with common sense by a guy like many of us(but probably much more smarter....). You can find a lot of information about working up a load using "normal" rifle powders even if they are not listed in a reloading manual. Generally you start with one, that has a burn rate similar to another, and work up. Is this how you guys do it for fast powders also?

Again, not looking for specific loads, but if you have some specific data that is useful then by all means please share. At the moment I am interested in rifle data because most of the fast powders have a lot of pistol data that is already floating around and has become "tested" safe.

My common sense when loading for rifles with regular unpublished data is to watch for normal pressure signs. Do you see these same signs before they get past the point of safety, or are there others? I know it would take a good scale, but would you substitute going up say .5 grains at a time(like some might with the slower powders), by just working up .1 grain at a time with the fast powders starting at one of the "tested" loads for the Alliant powders in the same burn rate vicinity?

For instance, take Hodgdon Universal. It is listed one step above Unique. If you started with the low end of "safe"(words in quotation marks are all relative words) Unique loads, would you deem that safe or is there a very high potential that they would be completely unsafe? I know that ALL unpublished loads have a potential for being unsafe, but we are talking about load development "old school style".

Lets take published data for another example. Hodgdon lists 8.0 grains(and ONLY 8.0 grains) of Titegroup for use in the 308 Winchester with 168 grain bullets, 1080fps, and 25,000 CUP. If you search for some Bullseye loads(which is listed one lower on burn rate charts) you find some that people have tested using around the same charge, even going lower and higher, with good results.

I'm not talking about working up accuracy loads here, just safe plinking loads specifically for cast boolits. But the question is more of if its safe to develop loads, and how to do it, and what to look for. Again, "relatively speaking" of course. I know that nothing can be set in stone. Just like a guy I talked with at Sierra about a specific published load, he said "it may be safe in my gun, but cannot guarantee it will be in yours".

[newton]

I should note that I did find this article and find it VERY useful, but still would like to hear others comments.

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/Gen...%20Powders.pdf

[Outpost75]

BEST reference on the subject: http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[Scharfschuetze]

+1 on Outpost's link.

I keep very similar graphs with my loads and I can say that the graphs in the GMDR link match very closely to what I graph when the calibres and powder are the same.

[newton]

I like the article, which is an embedded link in the first page you come too.

Pretty much it states he used a stout 444 gun and(using my words) closed his eyes and hoped for the best. lol

But it does shed some light and does make sense. Thanks

[rsrocket1]

I've gone up to 12 grains of Red Dot in a .308 with a 100g Short Jacket bullet and 15g Unique with the same bullet, but there is no real reason for me to go above about 11 grains of powder. My current plinker load is 10g Unique with a Lee C309-113-F. and C309-170-F. I've used faster powders like Clays and Titewad, but with such a long barrel as a rifle, the performance of one "relatively fast" pistol powder vs another is so small as to not matter. I do adjust the loads up or down up to 2 grains to get the best accuracy and match impact points. My .308 tends to move the impact point more than open or close groups so I try to get my groups to stay at the same POA so I don't have to change scope settings. 2 MOA is good enough for me because the shots are normally taken inside 50 yards.

I did get an 8# jug of Titegroup recently and may develop some loads with it but right now I have a bunch loaded with Red Dot and Unique and I need to shoot through those first.

[WRideout]

I have an affinity for the shotgun type powders to use in my rifles with CB loads. Have successfully used SR 4756 in my 30-06 with the Lyman 311284 boolit. Sadly, that powder seems to be on the way out. I have also used Green Dot with cast, for plinking loads, although that is an Alliant (formerly Hercules) powder.

Wayne

[hydraulic]

I'm getting on to where the end of this campaign is much closer than the beginning, so I have started paring down my accumulation of gun stuff so the Mrs. will have less of a burden. I had several different powders; half a pound of this, half a pound of that, so I decided to shoot them up and get down to just two or three numbers. Using the old Lyman 311413 and my CMP 03A3 I have shot up ll.5 grs. of Red Dot, Winchester 473, HP38, Unique, 2400 and a couple other pistol/shotgun powders that I can't remember, and they all shot about the same. Accuracy was good with all of them, and they were comfortable for an old geezer to shoot. (I can still get into the prone position). If and when I run out, and I'm still here, I'll probably buy whatever is cheap and available, and, hopefully, keep on shooting.