Lpoking at compressed powder

[Lead pot]

I'm sort of laid up with a very sore back with not much to do. So I will bring this out for discussion to get your feelings on powder compression. Clean burn? more efficient burn? or what ever.

Back when I used a lot of Goex I always felt I needed more compression to keep the fouling down in the bore. I did not go after increasing the velocity but I wanted a clean burn and small groups on the paper. But what made the small groups as compression was increased????and why did the ES & SD's vary so much with the compression increases after a point.
Below are some pictures of what compression looks like in the case with different levels of compression starting with .050", .100", 200", 300", .400" and .500".
I also took fast frame photo's of the different levels of compression what the burn look like at the muzzle, but I lost a lot of those I did not get backed up when the computer took a dive.






Here is the burn with minimal compression using the .50-90,



And here it is with .500" compression. a lot more smoke and the second frame showed a long red line going through the smoke. That is one of the pictures I lost.



No compression .44-90 bn rifle


High compression. .44-90 bn


Is it the hard unburned powder of a heavily compressed powder load that pushes out the fouling that leaves a shinier bore or is it some other factor??

Kurt

[country gent]

Could it be there is a point that compression is to much? A point where insted of a detonation or instant ignition you get a controlled burn. Heavily compressed charges have much less airspace left in the case for the instant ignitionof the charge, the primers burst ignites just the back of the charge instead of up thru.

[country gent]

An interesting test might be to start with an uncompressed charge. Chronograph it and watch fouling. then increase compression with a inert material cream of wheat, wads, or grex. Things should stay on a level path to the point of over compression. Adding more powder to see compression chaanges is changing 2 things together, The inert filler maintaining the same powder charge might show some interesting things.

[kokomokid]

I think it was Bob Woodfill that tested compression on Swiss and Goex ctg several years ago. I remember that swiss shot best at zero compression and tightened groups up again about .500 or so comp. He was using a 400 gr 45-70 mauser.
I like the shooting bench.

[Lead pot]

CG.
Even if the black powder was compressed into a solid pellet and I have compressed powder as much as .600". O-2 is not a problem with black powder the nitrate in the mix produces enough. I have checked compression from zero to .600" to see how dark the bore is. The compression does brighten the bore as you add more and I saw changes in chronograph readings go up from zero to maximum compression but as the compression gets tighter the velocity also drops down. There is a steady increase in velocity to a point then it drops off slowly. I have never seen a point where it drops below no compression.
The more the powder is compressed the more unburned powder I find on top of the snow in the winter. Also if you pay attention you will hear the sound or the round change when it goes off. Look in the extracted case mouth you will see more or less what I call dragon blood, the red burned Sulphur, as the compression is increased. l never found a need for fillers of any sort, so I don't check that out.

[Lead pot]

I think it was Bob Woodfill that tested compression on Swiss and Goex ctg several years ago. I remember that swiss shot best at zero compression and tightened groups up again about .500 or so comp. He was using a 400 gr 45-70 mauser.
I like the shooting bench.

I have tested Swiss and it favors very little compression, but it also has a wave where the groups again shrink.
I found just about all of the blk powder shoots quite well with low compression, but you have to control the fouling accordingly as some will foul more then others.

[Paul_R]

Great thread thanks for starting this topic. Does anybody have data on schuetzen powder?

[Buckshot]

...............JUst when it was getting interesting, it ended

..............Buckshot

[peter72]

I've nothing to add other than reading and being told some conflicting advice. I'd be very interested to hear others opinions.

[Don McDowell]

Great thread thanks for starting this topic. Does anybody have data on schuetzen powder?

Schuetzen is a lot like Swiss, does it's best work with very little compression. Fouling is also a product of the atmospheric conditions, even the least and softest fouling powder Olde Eysnford will deal you fits when the temps get above 80 and the humidity goes below 30%.

[Lead pot]

...............JUst when it was getting interesting, it ended

..............Buckshot

The best information about this topic you can get and that is take your rifle out of the closet and shoot it and see what all the different compressions with different powder's used will do your self.
I do this in the winter when all the matches are done for the year to keep from getting bored and keep my trigger time honed.

[Chill Wills]

...............JUst when it was getting interesting, it ended ..............Buckshot

QUOTE - Kurt "I'm sort of laid up with a very sore back with not much to do. So I will bring this out for discussion to get your feelings on powder compression. Clean burn? more efficient burn? or what ever.

Back when I used a lot of Goex I always felt I needed more compression to keep the fouling down in the bore. I did not go after increasing the velocity but I wanted a clean burn and small groups on the paper."
******************************************

Kurt, Thanks for the great info you always provide! Buck Shot- I think the thread ended because there is little factual data that regular riflemen like me can bring to the conversation.
Great powders are much easier to make shoot well than ones that need to be compressed. If accuracy is the goal most people will spend the money and buy the product that works best with the least amount of wasted time getting the results they need. That powder is not GOEX, KIK, Wano - Schuetzen or what ever.

So, that is why I can't offer much about compression.
I burn a few cases of Swiss a year competing. None of it is loaded compressed. Years ago, before the good Swiss was available in the USA I compressed loads of GOEX and Elephant powder trying to make it work, fighting accuracy issues all the while. A new case of powder with a new lot number meant starting over. Casting bullets coupled with lead cost, primers, loading time, range time and powder cost, were all spent hoping to find an accurate load. I could burn many more than a few pounds of powder from a case just learning how to load it and it still was not all that great in the accuracy department.

Kurt, you have an experimenters heart and sole. You have put in a tremendous amount of time working out black powder and lead bullets. I'm impressed with what you have done!
Like you, I always thought up ways to test ideas, sort out methods, adjust loads always hoping to settle on a way to shoot reliably accurate ammo but unlike you, I always had trouble finding time to follow up on them.


And that is why when the first batches of Swiss powder became commonly available in this country and I found how easy it was to put together quality match ammunition with it, all the compression dies starting collecting dust!

(My advice to others)
So by extension, if you are going to shoot BP to any extent and not just shooting a few rounds just to say you did; buying the very best powder is actually MUCH cheaper than buying the budget stuff.
It all depends on what you want to do. If you care about how accurate you can shoot and not just looking for bangs, try the good stuff.

Having said all that Kurt, knowing I would see Dave Gullo at the American Creedmoor Cup in Arizona a few months ago, I asked him to bring me a case of the GOEX Olde Eynsford 2F. Doing a powder hand-off with him saves me some expense, namely shipping and the damn Haz-Mat fee. The year earlier Hodgdon had provided a few pounds of Olde E 2F samples and I did some limited testing in a known accurate rifle. Zero compression did not work. It took more powder and some compression to equal the velocity and approach the accuracy of my best Swiss loads. I ran low on the sample powder and quit. I made sure the case I received is the same lot number as what I started testing. I have not found the time to pick back up on the load testing yet. The one thing I was hoping was for was that Olde Eynsford would shoot well with out compression. You know what Einstein said about repeatedly doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result? Right?

Equal volume charge loads of Swiss and Olde Eynsford are very different in three ways, charge weight, accuracy and velocity. Even compressed loads of Olde Eynsford have not bested Swiss powder in my experiments to date. Swiss still rules. Perhaps this old dog can still learn a new trick so I will remain open minded to compression loading and see where it takes me with Olde E. Hmmmm.

Michael Rix

[Chill Wills]

Kurt - Don, You posted while I was drinking coffee and typing what I composed and posted.

I am drinking coffee and getting into trouble on the internet instead of getting up early and shooting Cody's WYO Silhouette match

[Don McDowell]

Yup , that 120 miles skidding along on ice and snow packed roads didn't really appeal to me either,,,, so I'm loading more cases to stuff into the Canoe paddle and see if I can make heads or tails out of this 40-70ss cartridge..
Think 1/4 inch -.4 compression with OE.
My 45-90 load 81 grs 1.5 and the 535 money bullet,060 fiber wad, crammed into Jamison cases, primed with rp 9 1/2 primers shot across the screens at Raton at 1330..

[Lead pot]

Michael I do what I do for my own enjoyment and a lot of curiosity.
I think I have just about tried every powder here in the states including screened out blasting powder.
I worked with swiss when ever the powder I been using was either discontinued or I wanted to just go a different rout. Swiss is a good powder, but I could always make most of the other powders shoot also. Some I gave up on with just a few outings.
Just these last few years when the OE powder came out it started all over again because the Goex express was discontinued so I worked with a lot of KIK 1 to 3F till the OE came out. It is also a good powder but at first I had a terrible time with the 2F with a lot of vertical so I picked up another case of 1.5 and 2F Swiss. It shot very good just like the very first case I used in the past but there was always the nagging problem with hard fouling when it got dry out and the high barrel heat. At that time I mostly used the blow tube but soon found out that the tube just did not control the hard crusty fouling and once it got away on me the tube just would not get it done. I was forced to switch to wiping and the accuracy came back.
When Olde Eynsford came on the market I had Jerry send me a case of 1.5 and I soon ordered some 2F and later on when the 3 F showed up I got some of that.
The OE 2F I settled on over Swiss and KIK because the fouling was a lot easier to manage with the tube and wiping rod. OE volume to volume not weight to weight to swiss is very close. Swiss is heavier then OE by volume. OE does best with .100 to maybe .220" compression and fouling is easy to manage even with a very hot barrel. When I got my .44-100 rifle up and running I loaded 100 cases of reformed 2.6 cases and I shot about 80 some PP bullets with out fouling control at 200 yard target, I think I posted it here on one of these threads and all bit a very few, maybe 4 shots stayed in about 4" hole. That aint' bad with out controlling the fouling or having to use a shell camming tool to chamber a round.
This really sold me on the OE powder.
It's easy to come up with a load that will work with in 21 shots fired using a three shot ladder load. From there you can refine your primer and wad stack.
I never looked at the difference of the powder cost. I will use what ever powder I can get with the best showings on the target and that is the powder I will use.

Kurt

[Toymaker]

The "Bevel Brothers" had a regular column in the NMLRA publication "MuzzleBlasts". Some years back they wrote about powder compression in muzzle loaders. The result of their testing indicated that Goex was most efficient when compressed with 65 pounds of pressure. Me, my rifle, ram rod and bathroom scale spent a lot of time together. But it paid off.
When I started loading for my 45/70 I brought that lesson with me. Took some trickery to figure out how much compression I was getting in the long rifle with 65 pounds of pressure on the ram rod, but I got it. Turns out to be about 0.25 inch. So starting there I played with a little more and a little less compression until I started getting the groups I wanted.
Turns out my rifle likes compression at about 0.23 inch with Goex FFg. Swiss 1 1/2 doesn't like compression, just settle it through the drop tube and go. Goex Cartridge is gone now, but it liked 0.25 inch compression.
Piddlin', playin' and testin' are how you learn and get better. Don't try to remember everything - WRITE IT DOWN. I even clip the groups out of the targets, draw pictures of it, or take a picture and reduce it to add to the notebook so I know what I'm talking about.

[Chill Wills]

Michael I do what I do for my own enjoyment and a lot of curiosity.
I think I have just about tried every powder here in the states including screened out blasting powder. Kurt

Yup, and that is why I say I am very impressed with your willingness and patients to spend time and resources working with the lessor powders. My hat is off to you.

I burned most of four pounds of the 2F Olde E I was given through the 45-70 and found some loads I thought might be good, but, in each case and when retried, some unexplained flyers would leak out of the group. I never tested any of it longer than 300 meters. I based my starting loads on successful loads. In other words, bullets and seating depths in accurate match loads. Then replace the Swiss with Olde E and vary the charge and sometimes the wad thickness to achieve compression gradient from zero to no more than 0.300".

With Olde E I fond sweet spots in test charges about every 3-4 grains. Working around those load levels I found something promising always turns up but I have never wanted to even shoot the best of best of these in a match, even at only 300 meter targets due to the odd flyer that shows up. I watch other competitors wrestle with this kind of thing and wonder whats up.

Your observations on Olde E fouling are interesting. For hunting that is a real plus.

I have not done much with primers mostly using Federal or Remington Pistol or in older breach block rifles I substitute CCI rifle match - so they don't blow through.

[Lead pot]

I do most of my work using the .44's with bullets ranging from 485 gr prolates to the 507 gr Elliptical in the .44-100 rem st to the shorter .44-75 ballard. I don't get a chance to use a long range unless I shoot at a match and that is not a good place for load development. I have shot very small 1-1/4" groups from the 200 yard line and used them for the 800 to the 1000 and fell on my face. I don't know if I missed a wind shift or fat fingered it or if the powder load failed me. I don't know.
Next summer I will find a place on BLM land and set up a loading bench and go to work. Maybe by the time the Nationals or some other LR match comes around I wont have to use a match for load testing LOL.
Your shooting well from the scores I read on the leader boards so I will say don't fix what ain't broke.

Kurt

[rondog]

I've got nothing to add to the discussion, but I'd kill to have a place where I could shoot off my patio like that!

[Chill Wills]

Yup , that 120 miles skidding along on ice and snow packed roads didn't really appeal to me either

He-He.....might have been a little slippery!
I would had gone, snow and all had I been able to get away.
I think after getting there it might have been pretty nice shooting, wood stove in the shooting shed and a warm lunch. I really like shooting there and the Smith's are great people!
If - when that CPA gets rebarreled it can drive back up with me to one of the 22 BPCR matches. Let me know and I'll grab it.