357 mag. 20" barrel, 2400, heavy powder fouling

[stubbicatt]

Today myself and S.O. shot a lever action silhouette match. It was a lot of fun. We shared the same rifle. Together we shot just shy of 100 rounds through it.

Ammunition was 13.3 grains of 2400 powder, the Lyman 160 grain RNFP bullet with fat grease groove, Emmeritt's lube. Standard CCI pistol primers. The load seemed to fall apart at 200 yards on the rams, but good results were obtained at the other distances.

When I got home I cleaned the rifle, and some of the most crusty fouling short of black powder greeted me. I really don't think I've seen a bore that crusty with smokeless powder. There were a few flecks of lead, but nothing sticking to the bore. The fouling was powder fouling. It was so stubborn that I nearly was unable to get the first wet patch to go all the way through the bore. I had cleaned this time, and the last time, with T.M. solvent, which is a good all around solvent. Took 4 patches to get the bore slippery, and then 10 strokes with a brush, 2 more wet patches, and 2 dry patches.

Gents, it was nasty in there. I've been leaving the bore and chamber dry to avoid accumulation of oil in the chamber, action, etc., as it resides most of its time in the safe, muzzle up.

I wonder now whether there wasn't something I could do differently, and I wonder whether that crusty fouling might not account for some of the erratic vertical shots I was getting at 200 yards. Of course, it could also be that the little 357 was running out of steam, but shots were no longer going on call. I wonder if I should switch to IMR 4227?

Open to suggestions here. Thanks fellas.

[NSB]

I've shot a lot of 2400 over the years in a number of .357s and 44s. I've never run into what you're talking about. I'd be much more inclined to think it was related to the lube you were using. 2400 burns very clean in my handguns and lever guns right from the .357s up to my 45-70s.

[stubbicatt]

NSB thanks for the reply. I won't discount your input. If it were black powder, that would be my first guess too. There was a nice grease star on the muzzle, so I believe the lube lasted the length of the barrel.

Perhaps the charge weight was too low? I wonder if maybe the 2400 might not like a little more pressure to burn cleaner? I didn't look very closely, but there didn't appear to be any unburned powder, like one might see with 5744 in a 45-70, which is also a dirty powder to shoot, just not crusty. Neither have I experienced that kind of fouling using this same recipe before.

Perhaps it was long periods of standing idle in the hot sun, and dry prairie wind. The bullets this time were a little harder alloy than I normally use.

[Bazoo]

I've always known 2400 to be a clean burning powder. I've shot upwards of several hundred rounds loaded with 2400, from a pistol in 357 magnum, lubed with 2:1 beeswax/crisco and had easy cleaning.

13.3 grains of 2400 under a 160 grain bullet is a medium load for 357, and it should burn clean.

Is there any chance you got a few black powder rounds mixed it by accident? Maybe someone elses rounds?

[stubbicatt]

Bazoo, there were 5 cases which I had previously loaded with black, and hadn't washed out before loading with 2400. These were the first 5 fouling shots I took with the rifle. I suppose it is possible that upon ignition, any residue might have been blown down the bore. I'm not sure, but even that shouldn't have accounted for this amount of crustiness, I wouldn't think? No, they were all my rounds, nobody else's got mixed in.

You know, it has been my experience that 2400 is a clean powder also. Since these 5 empties previously loaded with black are the only variable here that has changed, other than a harder alloy, I'm going to hang my hat on that possibility. I've never had 2400 get so crusty.

So, for now, I'm just going to load them all again, after tumbling nice and clean, and see if it repeats itself. I'll bet it doesn't.

Thanks fellas.

[Outpost75]

If loading for a rifle only, a compressed charge of 4198 or RL7 will shoot clean in your .357 with 160-190 grain bullet, about 17 grains.

[MT Gianni]

I use that amount of 2400 in my 16" 92 with fouling that comes out with one patch. I use FWFL or Mikes Pink homo lube from an old group buy.

[stubbicatt]

Thanks fellas for the input. For now, I am going to go forward on the theory that it was the 5 empties previously shot with black, that some residue fouled the barrel, and things compounded from there. I suppose it could be my bullet lube, but previous use of the same formula has been successful, with easily removed fouling, so I don't think that is it. If I get similar fouling again, I'll re-examine my theory, and perhaps change up the lube.

I wonder, to add another variable, whether my previous cleaning regimen, using CLP to simply swab the bore and lubricate it, as opposed to using M.T. bore cleaner, after which I leave the bore dry, might also contribute to this fouling phenomenon? The first shot would be across a dry bore as opposed to a bore with some oil on it...

[Ben]

It certainly sounds as if your problem is lube related.

[btreanor]

If you already have a bunch of those boolits sized and loobed with the Emmeritt's lube, you might want to try tumble lubing them with some of the Ben's Liquid Lube before loading and shooting again.

[fecmech]

I know nothing of Emmert's lube or it's properties but I have shot a ton of 2400 in the .357 rifles with both 160 and 173 gr cast bullets at the 13.5 gr loading. I have used Carnauba red,NRA 50/50,Magma,and numerous others. I have never had anything other than a clean shiny bore. I think I would take a hard look at your lube if you're sure the fouling was powder and not leading.

[stubbicatt]

Thanks fellas. It may be lube issue, but it is the same lube that has left the bore smooth and trouble free before. Before changing up the lube I'm using, I'll try again with clean cases and see if those 5 dirty with bp cases didn't cause the issue.

I suppose it could be related to a harder alloy, but it was crusty stuff, just like good old black leaves in the bore, not lead. A couple of tiny flakes of lead was all that came out. In thinking back on it, I suspect there was probably enough bp residue in those 5 cases to build up a layer of crud, and when smokeless was shot on top of it, it just compounded matters.

[northmn]

Alox based lube and black powder don't mix. You likely have a combination that caused your problem.

DP

[robg]

i use 13.5 g 2400 with lla in my trapper no problem 1500fps with 165g rcbs boolit

[stubbicatt]

Holy smokes robg! I haven't chronoed any of these yet, but I really had no idea they would be traveling that fast. I was thinking maybe 1300. Another project I suppose.

I need to develop a "no faster than" 1100 fps load for a pistol caliber, cowboy rifle, silhouette match this Sunday, to be shot out to 100 yards on ½ size targets. I guess anything faster may damage the steel. I was thinking somewhere between 5 and 6 grains of WW231. I'll take the chronograph with me to figure this one out, and while I'm at it, I'll run a few of my 13.2 grain 2400 loads over the screens and see what I get.

[rmb721]

I use IMR-4227 in my 357 rifles. 12 grains with a 185 grain lead bullet and caranuba red lube.

[fecmech]

I need to develop a "no faster than" 1100 fps load for a pistol caliber, cowboy rifle, silhouette match this Sunday, to be shot out to 100 yards on ½ size targets.

With a 158 gr cast bullet the following will get you there, 5 grs Unique,4.8 231,4.2 Bullseye. All will run1050-1100fps out of a rifle in mag brass and all are accurate out of my 2 Rossi's.

[robg]

my 190g rcbs sil load of 11.5g 2400 clocks 1230fps. my light load of 7g true blue 165pb wfn lee boolit is very accurate but ive yet to chrono it .on my to do list

[stubbicatt]

Thanks guys. fecmech looks like if i start at 5 grains 231 I will be too fast. So I'll start at 4.8 grains with the 160 grain bullet.

robg, is that 11.5 grains of 2400 near max on that 190 grain cast bullet? With the 160 I had a hit on a pig, nice and centered and it didn't go down, and none of the rams (which were hit) went down. I wonder if that heavier bullet will make a difference? Fortunately they scored a full bullet hit as a hit, even if it didn't topple the pigs or rams. Still, it would be nice to take them down (if possible with the 357 mag in a rifle.)

[robg]

its just under 12gr is max ,use cci small pistol std primer.the rcbs sil mold is suppost to be 180gr but mine usualy drop 185 or 190 with my lead its gaschecked,my most accurate load have mamaged 2" 5 shot group at 100meters on occasion .if only i was as consistant .