Agreed, UNDER SIZED! It's possible that the expander plug is under sized. More likely it's over crimping that is the problem. Make a "Dummy" round or two and pull the boolits. Measure with a MICROMETER, not a caliper. I'll bet you a doughnut that the boolit is to small. Slugging the barrels would be good info also. It MIGHT help you fine tune the loads after you get this problem figured out. Good luck and keep us poasted on your progress.
Matt
Your bullet only starts out at 452 over an area referred to as the driving band. This is probably around 1/3" wide, towards the base end of the bullet.
The case can squish the back end of that driving band. The crimp die can squish the front end of that driving band. An FCD can squish the whole band.
When the round is fired, very hot gases get the back of the bullet nice and hot, but as long as the bullet seals the bore, the bullet will get out the muzzle before it melts. The heat capacity of the bullet is high enough that it would take a really, really long barrel before that could happen. It absorbs heat from the gas behind it, and there's a buffer zone of intermediate temperature at that junction.
But if the driving band is compromised badly enough, the gas is going to find a soft enough spot to push past the side of the bullet. Once that happens, a jet of heated gases streams past. That gas is at full temp. As soon as the bullet absorbs that heat, there's more gas streaming by, so there's no buffer of lower temp gas. This melts the bullet in the bore, leaving the fouling and causing the tumbling.
Your bullets are being squished by either the cases and/or the crimping die.
Last edited by gloob; 06-25-2015 at 05:42 PM.
The only things I know of that can cause a boolit to keyhole at very close range are:
1. The boolit is way undersized.
2. The boolit base is way out of square to the long axis of the projectile.
My thoughts exactly. To OP...are you using a FCD by some chance?Originally Posted by jcren
It doesn't sound like it.
See if someone on here will send you some boolits in the 230gr 45's, then see if they keyhole.My bet is somebody will be glad to send some test boolits. Many have complain that mfg's of bullits make them extremely hard so they don't deform in shipping. Also where in the barrel is the leading, it can tell some good infor.
CD
When you find you are in deep trouble, look straight ahead,keep your mouth shut, and say nothing.
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Theodore Roosevelt
I cast up some 200 grain SWC as well as some 230 JHPs. I'll take them out sometime this week and see how they do and post pictures. I also loaded some of the 230gr bullets that are giving me so much trouble to the max powder load of 7gr of power pistol powder and ran them through my Lee .452 sizing die.
The bullets I pulled from the dummy loads stilled measured about .450-.452.
Let's see how these work out.
Well, 0.450" is incredibly bad. Especially if that's at the base. There's a reason cast bullets are nominally 1 mil bigger than jacketed, not 1 mil smaller. Even a small dent in the driving band at .450 with the rest of the bullet being 452 can cause an issue. I have measured the same exact problem on 9mm bullets with observable resulting fouling and inaccuracy (only a small spot on the base at 354). 1 mil over doesn't allow room for error.
If you're sizing them DOWN to 452, and they're a full 452 after sizing, they should stay a full 452 after seating and pulling them, except for maybe a tiny ring right where you crimp them. If there's any leak, at all, cast bullets don't work. At least not as well as they could.
It is incredible the difference the right expander plug can make.
Last edited by gloob; 06-29-2015 at 08:48 PM.
.450-.452 after pulled is.........ehhh. Power Pistol isn't the best at obturating the base as lets say Bulleye or some other faster powder in the similar burn rate. The faster powder has a peak pressure that happens sooner so the base of the boolit bumps up more rapidly and quicker in the bore than a slower powder such as Power Pistol. The best means to shooting cast boolits, if you ask me, is to not have to worry about obturation to seal the bore and have the boolit hit the lands .001-.002 over bore diameter eliminating chances of gas cutting.
You may have better success with the 200 grain SWC's as you might not be seating them as far into the case vs what you are doing with the 230 grain RNs. 1.210" COAL with the 230 RNs puts the base of the boolit quite a ways into the case and approaches web which is thicker and will have more affect of case swage on the boolit.
I've had an XD and unfortunately the barrels as well as many other auto's these days come from the manufactures with short and abrupt throats. Not a problem for jacketed bullets, cheaper tooling cost, and the manufactures don't care about people shooting cast boolits. It meets their requirements end point. Needless to say there are a few ways to fix what you have going on and in no particular order. I do know the avenue I would go but to each their own.
1) Ream your barrel's throat so the throat is longer and corrected for use of .452 cast boolits.
2) Shoot a design that you don't have a full diameter ogive sticking outside the case and can be seated with a longer COAL so there isn't as much of the base in the case. An example is the Lyman RN 452374 for a 230 grainer, there are several 200 grainers out there
3) Cast a boolit that is tough enough to withstand the case swage when seated deeper in the case.
4) Get a case expander plug that will expand as far into the case as your cast boolit will be seated. Make sure to get an expander .001-.002 under the cast boolit diameter. I prefer .001 myself.
I've done all four above at various times in my life for different firearms. Is there a better way vs another......maybe depends on who you ask.
Well no pictures (phone battery died) but I'll take some next time. I shot 5 of the 230 RN tumblers with a max charge of 7 grains they were still tumbling inside of about 5 yards, the 200 grain CLSWC and 230 JHP with a mid range load (I don't recall exact numbers but they are written down at the house) both shot great with no issues. I'm thinking the 230 grainers may get melted into my alloy and cast into something more useable.
Any recommendations for a good 230gr RN double or single mold?
Yes the Lyman 452374 or you can go with this one as I designed it to have little to no full diameter front drive band sticking outside the case.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_...=45-230V-D.png
Tom can make you anything in the catalog or you can also ask for a design to be made like I have done on several.
Lyman at MidwayUSA: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/384...ain-round-nose
The problem with a current production Lyman mold is it will likely cast undersized unless you use Lyman #2 alloy or similar. Probably going to get a .452" boolit with WW alloy and 2% tin followed by the correct mold temp too. These days I prefer to have a mold cast at the diameter I want with the alloy I use so typically go with the various semi-custom/custom mold makers out there.
Right now at NOE he has a RN design on sale that is the H&G 34 copy.
It's been a proven boolit however I'm not a big fan of the offset ogive from the front drive band.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.p...sort=2a&page=6
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...products_id=64
......
......
......
?
......
Really?
The problem is the MOLD?
Your gun only shoots certain shapes of bullet?
Maybe you can try some of these:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ps-head-anyone
......
OK, then. Carry on.
Last edited by gloob; 06-30-2015 at 10:02 PM.
No I don't think he believes it is the design of the boolits per say however it is very possible that the 230 grain RN being seated so deep in the case created case swage as the boolit extended into the case near the web/head (tougher/thicker part). Probably why the 200 grain SWC he used had no issue with leading or keyholing. Should the original poster want a 230 grain mold the ones I suggest may serve him well for the firearms he has (the short throats). I also suggest 3 other possibilities to look into to remedy his situation.
Well you forgot the most popular trending "solution" for this particular problem. Powder coat. Lots o ways to fix this problem of cases that are too small. Least of which appears to be fixing the cases. Sure, why not buy a new $150.00 mold. That'll solve it for sure.
Edit: apologies for the sarcasm.
There seems to be a lack of fundamentals, here. Fix the actual problem, and it's fixed forever. Find a workaround by selecting a particular mold, and it might work OK for that particular bullet, but even then it is still not going to be as accurate if the base of the bullet is being damaged.
Harden alloy, and the bullet may be LESS damaged.
Choose a different bullet, and it may shoot ok, DESPITE being damaged.
Powder coat, ditto.
Ream out the throat, and you may avoid damaging the bullets, or you might not.
Fix the cases, and you are done with fouling and tumbling, and you will attain the highest accuracy.
Last edited by gloob; 06-30-2015 at 11:07 PM.
Did you read post #30???? There was no problems with the 200 grain SWC that was just shot today. A 230 grain RN boolit is not a typical COAL at 1.21" Maybe at 1.26-1.27" Your means of using an expander is noted and is #4 in my no particular order list.
No obvious problems. Not tumbling at short distances isn't the end-all gauge of perfect cast bullet shooting.There was no problems with the 200 grain SWC that was just shot today.
If his bullets are swaged at 1.21, they are probably swaged at 1.26-7, too, just to a lesser degree. The 45ACP case isn't particularly tapered, even at a whopping 6 hundredths of an inch deeper than usual.
The damage on the base of the bullet is cumulative from its entire trip down the case. That leading edge is what is expanding the case for the rest of the bullet.
If his driving band is totally shot at 1.21, there is still damage at 1.27.
You listed one solution and 3 bandaids. And OP has somehow decided, based on very limited information, that the solution is the bullet mold.Your means of using an expander is noted and is #4 in my no particular order list.
Based on the limited information I have, I am guessing his ammo shows a visible bulge at the base of the cast bullets.
Last edited by gloob; 06-30-2015 at 11:43 PM.
For all information I actually do 3 of 4 I suggested as a regular practice. Do you suppose that in 1913 with the 452374 creation that at a 1.272 COAL it was for several reasons. I've seated this particular bullet at the suggested 1.272 length and then at 1.20-1.21 and yes the base of the bullet can have more damage or case swage at the shorter COAL with no expander and/or with the combination of having "softer" alloy.
As for myself, I have designed a bullet that is as the 230V shows and many other people have as well and even back in 1913 as Lincoln Riley did a design that is well know so not earth shattering. I have also turned my own expander plugs for my needs, again not earth shattering. This is useful especially with particular soft alloys for hollow points. Additionally, I have throated my pistols to help with ease of the boolit into the rifling as scraping of the boolit can and does happen with the way current production barrels are being manufactured.
I'm not arguing with you about this any longer since you are only fixed in on your expander plug solution which might I add is not a bad option and one that I myself utilize. The expander plug is not the only means here however and I've created the same accurate results with and without one. Your one solution to everything is not an end all and other alternatives do work and are not bandaids. It's been already proven by the original poster that another bullet design worked with nothing else changed.
So yes an expander plug can work.
An expander plug "can work." That's one way to put it. "It's not a bad option." That's another way to put it. Or you could say that it will fix the problem for all of one's 451 caliber guns and all bullets and all your alloys for a one time investment between 10 and 40 bucks, depending on what one has to work with to start.
Buy why not ream the barrel of one gun to start with for $50.00 to see if that helps? Why not buy a specific bullet mold for one gun to see if that helps? Yeah, I agree that "could work," too. And I'm not arguing. I'm stating the obvious.
If I appear "fixated" on "one solution," it's because there's only one solution. When your dies are causing the problem, messing with your guns isn't a solution. RCBS sends you a slightly tight die, so you feel the need to work your guns, bullets, and/or alloy around that one tiny problem that happen-stance created through a lousy $25.00 sizing die? Those things might be an improvement. But why not fix the foundation before working on the roof?
Last edited by gloob; 07-01-2015 at 01:38 AM.
The OP in the OP stated that they leave excessive lead fouling in the barrel.
Correct the leading and you'll correct the key holing.
A 45acp should not be crimped in the true sense of the word. The "crimp" die should be adjusted to only remove the mouth flair. A diameter at the case mouth when using cast .452" boolits should never be under .471" if it is you are swaging.
Since the OP can shoot the .452" 200s its obvious that the problem boolits are either being reduced in size during the loading process or are being shot with too hot load causing blow by and leading. I leaning towards the first one.
Motor
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