Brush Defense Long gun Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun or 870 12ga

[jmort]

I will take a Tri-Ball 12 gauge load. Three .60" caliber hard cast balls, around 1000 grains at 1,200 fps. Crazy stopping power. Consider that 00 buckshot goes around 8" in wet newspaper and the Tri-Ball goes around 29"

[akmac]

My preference is a Remington 870 fully loaded with Brenneke slugs only because it is a gun I have used and hunted with since I was a youngster and trained with as an adult. I have DLP'd (defense of life/property) 6 brown bears on the Kenai with an 870 loaded with Brenneke slugs. The farthest distance was 30 yards the closest was 10 feet. Most of the bears died within seconds. The close one was in a full charge and the shot went in the eye and out the back of the skull. Instant lights out. I jumped aside and then placed an immediate second shot through the neck at the skull junction. Neither slug was recovered, both were complete pass throughs. I have also shot over 100 moose with an 870 at very close range, sometimes under 2 feet away. Tough critters, sometimes a buckshot load at 2 feet won't give an instant kill on a head shot but a Brenneke usually does the job well. I am a municipal police officer in a community that sees on average 30 moose/car collision per year and I have been doing this for over 22 years, hence my experience.

[bearcove]

Pick what you want. I have 10 guns for that situation and it would not be the same day to day. Life is not a survey of what is best, then conform, for me.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

A 45-70 bullet might expand, but my 12gauge Lyman Sabot Shocker Slug ain't gonna shrink...

My extended magazine 1100 holds nine and one up the pipe.

That = boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Fast as you can count to ten...

[nicodiesel]

i would go with the 12 ga. plus if you are far in the bush and if you are wounded or lost, the shotgun can be use to kill birds , squirels or other to eat and survive.

[Lonegun1894]

I voted .45-70 due to the range advantage, but would be comfortable/confident with either my Marlin 1895 or my Mossberg 500/590 12ga.

[Ramjet-SS]

I'll pass on both and go with a .458socom AR. Preferably loaded with some hardcast or brass solids.

Absolutely fully agree but any of the 250-325 grain FTX or even the 300 grain HP and or Hard cast 350 WFN. But make mine an SBR 458 SOCOM

[DR Owl Creek]

The new issue of Handloader Magazine, No 297, for August-September 2015 has an article entitled "Big Punch for the .45-70, A Second Look at 'Bear' Loads", Pages 52-57, by John Haviland. Haviland tested a number of different "bear" loads in a Marlin 1895G Guide Gun. For the penetration tests, he used bales of water-soaked, hard-cover books placed at 25 yards to catch the various bullets.

Here are some highlights from Page 54:

"The Remington 405 grain soft-points hit the bundles plodding along, yet the bullets folded back about half their lengths and ripped a big hole through the paper. Plain lead bullets of that weigh with a muzzle velocity of 1,100 to 1,200 fps have been killing large game for well over a century.

... [the] Cutting Edge 295 grain Lever+Raptor bullets tore 2 inch wide holes the first 4 inches through the books. Sheared petals started to appear a few inches in along the bullet's path. The holes shrank to about an in in width until the blunt shank of the bullets stopped after 14 inches.

Somewhere along it's path, the nose petals of the Barnes 300 grain TSX FN expanded to nearly 1.50 inches wide. That must have occurred right after impact, because the bullets shredded a nasty hole from the start and kept that diameter hole nearly until they stopped. Other than shedding a couple of petals, the bullets remained whole. [total penetration 13.5 inches]

Alaska Bullet Works Kodiak bullets [350 grains] are my choice for a bear stopper fired from a 45-70. Several times I have shot these bullets into wet paper, and each time they tore gaping holes 7 inches wide, penetrated 10 to 13 inches. The lead cores remained adhered to the jackets, and one recovered bullet had an expanded diameter slightly over an inch.

RCBS cast bullets [405 grains] were close behind the Kodiak in impressive damage. I could wiggle four fingers in the holes they blew in the first 5 inches of the paper. They stopped after plowing 11.5 inches and lost a bit more than half their original weight. ..."

There's a lot more too, but what more do you need to know?

Dave

[Blackwater]

Some good comments here on both sides of the issue. Only thing I'd add here is that I think I'd go with a small, light, compact red dot rather than a scope on it. Just quicer, ESPECIALLY in low light when these things seem a bit more likely to occur. FWIW?

[OverMax]

IMHO: Shotgun has always been the better weapon systems for close range shooting applications. Verses a 45/70~really? Especially so for the 870. Its just more versatile period. A rifle is simply a rifle. A shotgun can be whatever you want it to be. (Slug gun or shot shell) Bear do not like slugs nor Buck shot. That's the simple truth.

[Cmm_3940]

I chose 12ga slug simply because I have one. The best defensive weapon is the one that's readily available.

[Lonegun1894]

I think the sights don't matter a bit at these kinds of extreme close ranges. I mean, this is one of those things you practice snapping up your weapon on target and making a quick accurate shot, kind of like hip shooting a handgun. I mean, part of what I was taught young was that at in home defensive ranges (or other VERY close and VERY fast shooting, like this) you don't wait to find the sights and align them, you look over the sights of a long gun and put lead on target. I mean, if someone kicks in my front door right now, does it really matter if I hit the top button on their shirt or hit an inch in any direction from it? Same thing goes for the bear. I think it is more important to find a weapon that fits you and that you like and are comfortable with so you actually practice with it so it is an extension of you when you need it, than trying to figure out what all details you need. Either the 12ga or the .45-70 has enough power for the job, so whichever you like best configured however you like works. I mean, you could completely remove any sighting system from either weapon and they would both still work fine out to at least 25 yards at least with the occasional practice session.

[Blackwater]

All I can add in is that my cousin shot a 600+ lb. hog in the Savannah River Swamp, and it was written up in the Sunday edition of the Savannah Morning News newspaper with a full back page plus a little carry over content, and it was hit 19 times with a variety of buckshot, slugs and finally my cousin's .30-06. The shoulder plate stopped the buckshot dead, and it didn't penetrate at all. The slugs (conventional Foster type) didn't do much better, and the shoulder plate stopped them enough it might have survived the wounds. Only the '06 penetrated sufficiently to stop it, and it took a 2nd and final shot to kill it. Once it got shot a few times, apparently its pig adrenaline kicked in, and it was like trying to take down a tank!

I have no problem with the shotgun, but I'd be CERTAIN that they TYPE of slugs I was using would offer plenty of penetration, and this is probably where those newfangled solid copper slugs might really come into their own. Bears don't have that gristle plate on their shoulders like hogs can, especially those swamp run types, but I'd still be CERTAIN I had plenty of penetration, and this is coming from a guy who likes expansion on deer. Things that can bite back get "special treatment" in my lil' baliwick! Just a FWIW.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I pick my 45/70, simply because I know exactly what I can do with it, how it shoots, and my experiences period.

[Ramjet-SS]

Some good comments here on both sides of the issue. Only thing I'd add here is that I think I'd go with a small, light, compact red dot rather than a scope on it. Just quicer, ESPECIALLY in low light when these things seem a bit more likely to occur. FWIW?

Yea Trijicon RMR test can run with and without batteries.

[lobogunleather]

A one ounce rifled slug weighs 437.5 grains and is about .70 caliber. Typical loads in the .45-70 are 405 grains and up, and .45 caliber. Both are very formidable, but only when they hit the intended target.

During my law enforcement career I was required to qualify regularly with the shotgun, almost always a Remington 870 with 20" barrel. When shooting slugs at silhouette targets at ranges from 25 to 100 yards it becomes readily apparent that there is a huge trajectory path to be dealt with. At ranges up to 50 yards or so the slug's point of impact was always high compared to point of aim, about 1 foot high at 25 yards and still 6-8" high at 50 yards. My approach was to aim at the pelvis out to 50 yards, and at the shoulder level at 100 yards. On a man-size silhouette that means a difference of about 1-1/2 feet vertically; not what I would call real precision shooting.

It takes a lot of practice, and regular practice to maintain the proficiency needed to place shots with any degree of accuracy, even at relatively close ranges. Adding in the adrenaline overload in a close range defensive scenario involving a very large carnivorous animal is likely to add to the difficulty.

What I am saying is that whichever is chosen (shotgun or large bore rifle) it will require a lot of range time to build the familiarity and experience to handle it effectively.

[Norske]

Ballistic Products of Corcoran, MN sells a 1 1/8 ounce 12 gauge slug. Methinks that will hurt on both ends of the shotgun.

[AllanD]

While I own both a Marlin 1895 and TWO rifled shotguns(a Mossberg500 with a rifled barrel and Iron signts and a Remington 870 with a Hastings rifled barrel wearing an aimpoint2000 red-dot scope) my using either for defense against any large presumably pissed-off critter would be more related to ammo on-hand than anything else.


With either of the 12ga rifled guns a small diameter saboted round like the federal premium load or the Old BRI sabot round would give a warm feeling, the 45-70 with my typical hunting loads (Some sort of jacketed 300gr Hollow point) would not make me confident, a 400gr Barnes Original or a cast soft lead 405gr loaded Hot? different story

Let me put it this way I would not want to be standing behind a big brownie if my Twin (if I had one) was shooting at the bear with my hotter 400gr handloads...

The only time I took the big Marlin hunting I saw nothing all day, but when I was walking out I spooked up a doe at about 15 yards, she startled me, but not enough to keep me from getting a shot off... that doe zigged and zagged and that one shot fully penetrated a maple tree 20yards out fully penetrated that doe end to end and after exiting her fully penetrated a hickory tree and after that lost itself in a third tree... so as I figure it the bullet penetrated 10" of maple then 30" of deer, then another 10" of hickory, then another 10" deep in a third tree...

I say again I would not want to use a big bear as a shield if someone were lobbing those bullets at me...

That all being said, the federal premium sabot load uses a 480gr 470cal copper jacketed sabot slug which
I expect to perform as well on an big animal that can kick, scratch or bite...

and as a last point, unless a big bear is jet propelled, If I have a my Remingon 870 with a full tube and the six slugs I put into the critter don't make it calm and peaceful, I leave any witnesses wondering how anything survived... I am not ashamed to say I'm not that good with a lever gun, but with a pump-gun I can honestly say "I'm a damned artist"... and I will likely find myself standing over a dead bear with a pile of empty shells at my feet.

Long ago I took up trap shooting and took to heart what someone told me...
"Practice, practice. practice... Oh and $10,000 worth of ammo might not be a bad idea..."

I immediately got into reloading and burned my way through 1000-1500 reloads a week for the next
year....

[Lead Fred]

A 12 gauge slug at 10 FEET is 53 on the TKO scale.

My dino killer 45/70 rounds at 100 YARDS is 45 on the TKO scale.

Dont lay no boogie woogie on the king of rock & roll

[luvtn]

The National Park Service in Alaska issues 870's to visiting archeologists. Buckshot first round followed by Breneke slugs. In Barrow, Ak, the Inupiat wildlife officers use 12 ga rubber bullets to drive the polar bear out of town. When that fails they switch to Breneke slugs. I voted for the 12 ga.
luvtn