Listen up Newbies - No Kaboom reloading the Geezer way

[cainttype]

Charles accomplished his goal in the original post. He clearly outlined a safe routine for anyone newer to reloading to consider as a KABOOM-proof method... New reloaders should take note.
Discussing progressives evolved/sidetracked later, but isn't the intent here.

Char-Gar is an outstanding contributor to this forum, and has been a real mentor to many here. His experience and advice should be valued by those seeking to improve their knowledge about cast shooting, especially if they enjoy classic military rifles.
I'm one slight generation behind Charles (he was beginning reloading about when I quit wearing diapers), and the whole Internet thing is still uncomfortable to me. Conversation in these venues often appears harsh, regardless of the intent, so it seems that everyone is too easily offended.

The last thing I'd like to see, would be less of Char-Gar.
He is a valuable asset to this forum and his input will be of great value to most here. A "Newbie" would be hard pressed to find a better wealth of information from a gentleman with the patience to share and mentor as much as Charles has for years now.
Hopefully that willingness to share and contribute will continue for years to come.

[Dragonheart]

It's a real man that can admit a mistake. And a mistake can be made even using the old one at a time"Lee Loader", that you had to hammer a case into the sizing die. So it's not the machine it's the man. I have been using progressive presses since RCBS first came out with the Green Machine, then Dillon 450, Dillon 550's and now I run two Dillon 650's. I use a number of different powders and bullets and found a method I will share that works for me. Because almost everyone is using a powder dropper, buy a roll of clear "removable"scotch tape available at an office supply and a Sanford Sharpie. Put a strip of tape on your powder measure and with the Sharpie write on the tape the powder, the charge and the bullet weight. Now you have a visual reference and no longer need to remember anything. when you change a load remark everything. The removable tape can be stuck to a clean surface to reuse.

additionally, I usually buy my powder by the jug, but I also buy a one pound can of my much used powders. I fill my hopper first with the one pound can until it's gone and leave the can at the press. If I need to refill the hopper I now use the jug. When I change powders the left over powder from the hopper goes into the one pound can. I never pour back into the jug and possibly contaminate 8 pounds of powder and the can at the press is the powder that is in the hopper. Being anal is a plus in handloading.

[reloader28]

I aint been loading as long as some of you guys, but its been long enough I dont remember when I started and I've loaded several hundred thousands of rounds.
I load handguns on a Dillon 650 and an RCBS progressive, but I load rifles the same way as the OP except I dont put a bullet in the case. When the block is full, I check everything with a flashlight because its easier to compare the charges and see a mishap.

I did however have a recent brain fart and apparently double charged a 45-70 round = gun blown up.
I was using a new Lyman powder measure/scale and double checking it on my RCBS beam scale. Then poured the powder into the case thru a Lee case expander on one press then seated the boolit on another press.
I think the end buzzer going off on the powder scale made me loose my train of thought and I must have dumped 2 charges in one case. I probly went straight to the boolit seater after that without checking since I knew I just dumped in the powder. The end result - now I need a new gun.

I'll admit it, I'm an idiot and screwed up big time. Now I'm going back to my original loading procedure (like the OP). It could have been MUCH worse, but it shouldnt have happened at all. You newbies take heed, it can happen to anybody if your not focused at all times and it flat HURTS when a stick of dynomite goes off in your hand. 100 times worse than a fire cracker in your fingers. If you dont know what I'm talking about, you've had a sheltered life.

CharGar, if you got flamed in my thread, I apologise. I'll have to go back and reread it I guess. It seems like a long time ago and all kinda blurry now.

[Blackwater]

Char-Gar, please don't quit posting. You're one of the most respected and consistent posters here, and if you left, we'd all be at a loss. Don't let the idjit arguers get to you. They're not worth it. The "gold" in your knowledge and experience is simply worth too much, and I know part of the reason you come here is to at least TRY to help the newbies and mid-level posters who have problems, and to pass on some of the knowledge you've EARNED in the past.

Just got off the phone with an old fishing buddy, and he was complaining about how many come to him for advice because he almost NEVER goes to the river or wherever without bringing back a healthy stringer, while many go fishless or only catch a few - barely enough for a meal, if that. What happens is simply that they'll actually SEEK HIM OUT and ask him what to do to get better results. He'll answer and truthfully so, and try to help. THEN, and this is the idiotic part, they'll almost ALWAYS say something to the effect of, "Well, I don't do it like that, I do it like THIS." The puzzling part is that these very people who sought him out to START with don't seem able or willing to absorb what they're told, and somehow expect him to offer some sort of voo doo answer that'll let them get the same results and not change anything they do.

It wasn't long ago that a friend sought me out for advice on long range shooting. We'd gone to a local range where we could shoot at up to 1200 yds. and had our targets set up at 600. He was shooting a VERY nice custom actioned rifle built and blueprinted especially for long range. He was getting about 8-10" groups at 600, and seemed satisfied. I watched him shoot and noticed he was pressing the forend against the side of the front bag, and putting side pressure on the grip, rather than adjusting the bags like he needed to. His form was otherwise acceptable, and I pointed out what he was doing and told him that this was giving him much of his lateral and some of his vertical spread. After SEEKING ME OUT FOR ADVICE, what did he tell me? He said, "You're CRAZY! That could NEVER make that much difference! I shrugged my shoulders, and a bit peeved, told him that if he was satisfied getting the results he was getting, to go on ahead and keep doing it the same way. He kept sitting there doing the same things, and got the same results. Then toward the end of the day, at dusk, when the chrono quit working, I had some rounds left I wanted to shoot, and he called to me to go look in his spotting scope. I wasn't very interested in what he'd done after having been called "crazy" for giving him good, well recognized advice, and said I had my own shooting to do and we'd look at it later when we pulled the targets and were on the way home. He again said I needed to go look at his target, and there was something in his voice that made me look over at him. His face was red, and he had a sheepish grin on his face. This was intriguing enough that I got up and went to the spotter and took a quick look. He had 4 of 5 rds. in a group that later turned out to be 2 1/4" at 600. Not bad for a rank beginner with a new rifle at that distance! To his everlasting credit, he'd finally decided to give my advice a try, and that was his result. And he also had the good grace to tell me, "I guess you were right. I just didn't see how it could make that much difference, but it DID." This retrieved at least a major part of our friendship. It's awfully trying on a man to be sought out and THEN to be told he's "crazy" when he does all he can to help a newbie, but today, it's almost expected.

The problem is that it's not JUST the blacks and whites on welfare that seem to have swallowed the "entitlements" theorum. Most younger people seem to think they can just take to gunning and reloading any old way they like, mostly for the simple sake of "style," and are "entitled" to the same results anyone else who has the same gun and rig gets. This has NEVER been the case, of course, and never WILL be. The ones who get the great results in reloading, fishing or any other endeavor of a technical nature are the ones who seek out and TEST the advice of others who are successful in that endeavor. If it doesn't work out for them, they go BACK and ask what they might have done that was wrong, and re-test again, and usually find they forgot some little detail that made a big difference in results.

When we old timers were growing up and shooting as younger men, money wasn't thrown about like confetti, and we usually HAD to make every dollar count. Thus, we paid attention to what we did and the results therefrom, and expected to have to "sort it out," as the old African white hunters used to say. We never expected to become overnight wonders, like WAY too many newbies seem to today. The changes in attitude and ethics of our more "modern" day HAVE, most definitely, had repercussions throughout our culture, and this is one of the most frustrating aspects of it. It's just that simple, and just that consequential. There've always been consequences for hubris - the destructive kind of pride that comes from seeing one's self as lord of all they survey, and final arbiter of everything that comes up. You can see it in business, in politics, and even in religion, what there is of it left, anyway. And nobody, or at least very, very few, seem to notice, or even WANT to notice. Why, that'd be tantamount to admitting we'd made a MISTAKE, or hadn't listened well, and NOBODY seems to want admit such things, though they're not quite so adamant about actually DOING what they THINK of themselves as doing.

Sure makes it difficult for us old timers to help. There's a vast chasm between "thinking" and really KNOWING, but it seems to be lost on an awful lot of otherwise good and worthy people today. And that's just plain sad .... but it's just the way things and people are today, and nothing is more common now. I've taken to doing what I did with my buddy on the range - I just shrug and tell them if they're satisfied with their results to keep doing what they're doing, and even THEN, many seem puzzled why they can't get the better results without changing what they're doing. Truly, this is a sign of our times, and it aint' leadin' us anywhere ANY of us on either end of the spectrum are going to find very satisfying when the inevitable results occur. But that's just llife, or what serves for it today. Sure is frustrating for us old heads, but we're tough enough to handle it .... well, most times, anyway.

[Love Life]

This thread just hit Simple Jack status.

[gloob]

"I'm the only person in this room professional enough to handle this Glock 40."

That'll fly, until you shoot yourself in the foot. Good luck, OP.

[John Boy]

Char - Excellent Post! If I may add 3 items to your list:
* Never be interrupted when reloading. If your called to dinner - finish what you were in the process of doing
* Never reload if you are tired, especially late in the evening doing a rush job to prepare ammo for the next day
* Be damn sure if you use a digital scale that it is set for GRAINS not GRAMS!

[JWT]

I load for handgun on a progressive and rifle single stage. My Dad taught me to reload around 30 years ago and I have refined what he taught me.

• I decap, size, chamfer, trim, and clean all cases.
• After tumbling all cases are wiped clean and inspected for issues.
• Next I verify all flash holes are clear.
• At this stage cases are sorted by headstamp and boxed.
• When I am ready to load I hand prime. Only one box of primers out at a time. I put 50 in the tray and make sure I have 50 primed cases when done.
• My procedure for rifle and pistol diverges at this point.

Rifle

• All powder charges are individually measured on an RCBS 10-10 scale.
• The powder measule is kept over half full at all times for consistent weights.
• Every charge is dropped using the same motions with the same force.
• A powder trickler is used to achieve identical weights.
• The powder is dropped into the case and the case goes into a reloading block.
• When the loading block is full I seat the boolit/bullet.
• OAL is measured at least every few rounds.
• Loaded ammunition is boxed and labeled with headstamp, primer, powder charge, OAL, and loading date.

Pistol

• Primed cases are loaded into my RCBS Piggyback at station 1
• Station 2 is open
• Station 3 is powder
• Station 4 is a lock-out die
• Station 5 is seat and crimp
• I watch at each pull of the handle for powder measure actuation. I only pull the handle after visually verifying the powder level in the case while placing the boolit/bullet.
• I check OAL every 10 to 20 rounds. I have encountered some comercial cast boolits that had so much hard lube on them that the lube packed inside the seater die.
• When developing new loads I load single stage.

I've had a couple squibs over the years with the progressive, but they all occured when I was distracted or tired. I don't load anymore if there are distraction or if I am tired. Distractions would include TV, music, other people, the dog, etc. I also refuse to multitask.

I am very picky about my ammunition.

[Dragonheart]

I have been handloading for more than 50 years, my first press was single stage O type made by CH. I have gone through a lot of presses and now use two Dillon 650"s. Want to share is people have been blowing up guns ever since the first powder was rammed down a barrel and I can tell you they were were blowing guns up 50 years ago and will continue to do so because man is not a perfect animal. As they say "s--t happens" for a lot of different reasons and it doesn't make any difference whether you use a single stage or progressive; that's your choice if it works for you, great.

As for me I know my age has caused my to get easily distracted, some can't blame it on age. I use a progressive because I believe it is the safest way to reload as long as the machine stays in its cycle and all the alarms are working properly, but just like a computer "garbage in garbage out" and that applies to single stage also.

[captaint]

Excellent thread, CharGar. Sometimes things just need to be said. Not everybody deals with stuff the same. I'm a single stage handloader myself. The only problem I have with progressives is that inexperienced people use them with little understanding of the process - and the possible results. I may get a 550 one of these days myself, we'll see....

[FSR]

Reloaders use progressives. Handloaders generally do not.

This and OP speak with the wisdom of my Father. He never used a progressive press for rifle/pistol ammo but did try one for shot shell. Quickly discovered he didn't like it. I am 50 and started handloading and casting when I was 10.
My first centerfire rifle was the #5 Lee Enfield I still have it wandering zero and all.

[Dragonheart]

Excellent thread, CharGar. Sometimes things just need to be said. Not everybody deals with stuff the same. I'm a single stage handloader myself. The only problem I have with progressives is that inexperienced people use them with little understanding of the process - and the possible results. I may get a 550 one of these days myself, we'll see....

If you decide to go progressive may I suggest you go with the Dillon 650 instead, as I have owned the 450, two 550's and now two 650's. The cost is very little more for the basic 650 and you can add a case feeder later, which handles both pistol & rifle, it auto indexes, and has an extra station for a powder check making it a safer press, not that a progressive is any more dangerous that a single station. As far as more inexperienced people using a progressive I have to differ. Why, because it is so cheap to get into reloading using a single stage. Very few handloaders start out with a progressive because of the additional cost. It's not until they come over to my house and crank out a thousand handgun rounds in an hour and see the machine is just doing everything they do, only doing it in one step.

[ShooterAZ]

Great thread. I have had one Kaboom in 40 years of handloading. It was RIGHT after I bought a new Dillon 550. Double charge in my Kimber 45ACP. The only things that were damaged was the grips, the magazine, and my pride. I know exactly what happened, and from that point on I keep a light right over the press, and I don't stop the loading sequence until all cases are off the shellplate. A lesson learned the hard way.

[dead dog]

Keeping cases upside down is a good idea. I had a block of clean primed 357 cases that got filled by a dirt dobber.

[NavyVet1959]

Keeping cases upside down is a good idea. I had a block of clean primed 357 cases that got filled by a dirt dobber.

So, exactly where does dirt dobber fit in the burn rate chart? Before or after 20mm powder?

[s mac]

So, exactly where does dirt dobber fit in the burn rate chart? Before or after 20mm powder?

I think of it as more like an inert filler.

[NavyVet1959]

I think of it as more like an inert filler.

So, perhaps *slightly* slower than 20mm powder.

[Ola]

Before I pour powder out of the original can, I ALWAYS put a piece of masking tape on the side of the measure. And before I put the powder can down on the table I check the label AGAIN and write on the tape what powder I'm using. This method works for me.

[Alley Cat]

I seat a boolit right after I visually check that the correct amount of powder is in the case. With all of the mistakes that can be made while reloading, the one that can do serious harm is putting too much or too little powder in a case. Double checking the powder charge immediately before the projectile is seated is cheap insurance against a kaboom.

[dtknowles]

I seat a boolit right after I visually check that the correct amount of powder is in the case. With all of the mistakes that can be made while reloading, the one that can do serious harm is putting too much or too little powder in a case. Double checking the powder charge immediately before the projectile is seated is cheap insurance against a kaboom.

This is the truth. I do this no matter what press I use, single stage, turret or progressive. Would not think of loading any other way.

I am not sure if I am more fallible on a progressive or a single stage. I have had brain farts the single stage and I have been fooled by the mechanics on a progressive but I (knock wood) caught it and pulled the bullets. Most of my issues on the progressive have been upside down or missing primers not the powder charge. I can testify that I have made way more bad ammo on the progressive, I can screw up a few before I figure out I screwed up. One the single stage, you don't make many bad ones before you see you have a problem. I learned that I have to keep the batches small or I lose focus and start spacing out.

I don't like making ammo like a machine. If I need a lot of a particular caliber I would prefer to buy it. People have asked the question here before why do you miss .22 LR so much, well I miss driving by the store on my way to the range and buying a thousand rounds of ammo and knowing that I would be coming home with a few hundred to put on the shelf.

I reload mostly to make a point and to prepare for when ammo might be hard to find. I have a couple wildcats that I bought as an opportunity to learn case forming and achieve small groups to prove to myself that if a gun did not shoot I could know it was not me but the load or the gun.

I think we all should be a little bit chicken about each round. When in doubt, check it out. Think before you act. That impulse act can't be undone. We had a drill at work for hazardous ops, everyone had to report on many things but one was called your STUFF. It was a given that people could be having a bad day. You do this too, you know what is up sometimes with your coworkers.

Nobody had to go home because their STUFF was off but you did not put them on the Kill Switch. Don't reload when your STUFF is off. Don't get in a argument with SWMBO and then load a bunch unless you plan on breaking them all back down to components.

Tim