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Thread: Press Cam Over or Not

  1. #1
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    Press Cam Over or Not

    In the recent thread about the BSSP press, member aaronraad provided a link to an older thread:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Press-Picture

    Here he shows modifications he made to his BSSP. One of the mods was a handle stop that kept the press from camming over. I've corresponded with him about it and his explanations are sound, he gets more consistency in his work that way.

    Being relatively new to swaging, and only having used the BSSP, I wonder what other presses do, and/or if others use the cam over while swaging. The Lee cast iron and Rockchucker seem to be the most popular reloading presses used for swaging, aside from specific swaging presses.

    In reloading, I have heard both sides argued, due to the springback brass cases have. Some say the cam over is the only way to get a consistent stroke, others say it doesn't need it.

    So for the sake of discussion, what are your thoughts? I'm in the middle of a run of bullets in preparation of the season, but plan on trying the stop at a later date.

  2. #2
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    Interesting, I've been thinking about an article I read about core weight deviation due to spring back and was wondering my self if it may have to do with cam over. Part of the reasoning was the in consistency of the handle stroke. I thought cam over added to the consistency. Just a thought.
    Bill

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    Cam over and/or stroke limiting would only be as accurate as your arm motion could reproduce reliably. This is the reason there is a need for competition seaters which have a gauge on the stroke (K&M makes one). The most consistency you'll get would be with said apparatus reproducing bullets at exactly the same pressure. High end bullet manufacturers for true match grade stuff do not even gauge their swaging. For some helpful hints on dies similar to yours but in a different press setup, check out this resource http://www.precisionballisticsllc.co..._My_Bulle.html
    IMHO if the core weighs what you want it to and it has NO VOIDS, the most important part is accomplished. The rest of the steps are trying to reproduce everything the exact same way, for instance; feel, motion, stroke length etc...

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    Good read! Didn't really see anything about camover though. I sure wouldn't want to count the "my"s in that article.

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    The reason you didn't see anything about camover is because I believe its all about your own degree of consistency. And so does the author of that page along with many other bullet makers out there. I don't think that camover is essential, just a leftover from the reloading presses converted for swaging. Call me silly, but my bullets are pretty accurate even a long ways out. That's just my $.02

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    I remember reading a while back about this particular subject. I cannot remember how or why I came to my own conclusion but it is this. The cam over not only helps to seat the lead consistently but also seats it to the same pressure twice, when it cams over and when it cams back to pull the die back away from the punch.

    I can see where Aaron using the stop will not allow him to apply any more pressure on the first core over say the 50th core and so on. I am sure this will eventually just turn into whatever you may think is how you can get the same results every time.
    "Consequently we move away from other shooters to remain focused on our passion, as our ideas are quickly dismissed or misunderstood by others. Sharing does not come easily for swagers, not because they are necessarily selfish, but because they have been whittling away in their only little world for so long, that being able to relate to others what they understand is no simple task."

    ​Mentor



  7. #7
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    I believe the speed of the stroke has more to do with consistancy than whether your press cams over or not. The faster the stroke the the greater the pressure swaging your cores and the more your dies expand from the pressure. Ferris Pendell proved this to me. He had a swage press with .0001 reading dial indicators on the press ram AND on the die body, and keep in mind Ferris used 1.5 diameter bar stock for his dies instead of the 1" stock most other makers use. If we fast stroked the press the indicators were all over the place, and when we used a slower stroke AND a pause at the top of the stroke the indicators almost always went to the same reading. Keep in mind this press wasn't a converted reloading press, it was HUGE! A Walnut Hill press would look fragile beside this thing and it had needle bearings and tool steel pins in all pivot points!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houndog View Post
    I believe the speed of the stroke has more to do with consistancy than whether your press cams over or not. The faster the stroke the the greater the pressure swaging your cores and the more your dies expand from the pressure. Ferris Pendell proved this to me. He had a swage press with .0001 reading dial indicators on the press ram AND on the die body, and keep in mind Ferris used 1.5 diameter bar stock for his dies instead of the 1" stock most other makers use. If we fast stroked the press the indicators were all over the place, and when we used a slower stroke AND a pause at the top of the stroke the indicators almost always went to the same reading. Keep in mind this press wasn't a converted reloading press, it was HUGE! A Walnut Hill press would look fragile beside this thing and it had needle bearings and tool steel pins in all pivot points!!
    That's a little gold nugget right there, thanks Houndog!

    Just goes to show that we can beef everything up, but our tooling and equipment materials still go elastic before they go plastic.

    We're you concerned at all that 'fast stroking' might have exceeded the operating forces of the spring mechanism in the dial indicator. Readings would have obviously fluctuated more so at speed, but were they possibly exaggerated? Much like using a dial indicator on a lathe, you normally hand turn the spindle as opposed to running it at 2000 rpm.

    It would have been interesting to see the area under the curve so to speak, comparing fast and slow stroking. I keep thinking that a pressure gauge or a load cell might be more appropriate, but something is mostly better than nothing, as long as you're aware of it's limits.

    Spoke to a local swager this month about his collection of hydraulic presses used to make bullet jackets from 17 to 30 cal. Apparently he has a robotics engineering background etc.; and spent quite a few years getting the presses running consistently with various PLC controls and gauges as part of closed loop feedback system. Although he was quite happy to discuss some of his observations for a J4 plant tour he did in the 80's, but after 20min I pretty much got the impression he was taking everything else to the grave.

    It's frustrating knowing where the nuggets are buried, but still out off your reach. What's even more frustrating is that some people don't appreciate that their equipment, tooling and knowledge only has value, if others exist that understand it's value; and are therefore able to give it a place in the community. Sharing is the only chance small scale bullet swaging has from going under because we are only treading water at the moment. Anyone thought about what will happen when the Corbins both go, and the will go, we all have to go eventually. Regardless of what you think of their products and services, they still make up a significant part of the supply chain and without them the shift in balance could shrink our community past the point of no return.

    Apologies to the OP for going off topic (as I often do), but if you spotted a gold nugget aside the path; I'm sure you'd stop (if safe to do so) and take at least a quick look.
    Be careful what you aim for, you might hit it! Antipodean Industrial - Home of the G7L projecitles

  9. #9
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    I was reading last night, as I have been accused of on occasion, a copy of Dave Corbin's technical notes on Power Swaging. I find it a struggle most of the time reading his publications because on face value they seem genuine, but you keep getting this 'sales/marketing' agenda seeping through.

    My coping mechanism becomes reading his work as marketing material first and then trying to pick out the technical tidbits; all the while trying to keep everything in exact context because in the next chapter he will apply the complete opposite rule!!!!

    So to summarise his principle, because stating the actual examples he used becomes a short story:

    Use a STOP when you want to precision limit the length.

    Use the OVER-CAM when you want to precision limit the pressure.

    Okay, so me that now means I keep using the STOP for swaging lead cores; I use the OVER-CAM for core seating; and I have a choice for point forming. The for point forming is do I want to limit the overall length of projectile and therefore meplat diameter etc. regardless of core/jacket variations; or do I just 'go with the flow' and let everything form up under the same pressure each time?

    Time to run a few trials me thinks!
    Be careful what you aim for, you might hit it! Antipodean Industrial - Home of the G7L projecitles

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    Great discussion folks! Very interesting that not only the cam-over, or stop has effects, but speed and "hang time" does as well. So it seems this falls into the same scenario as throwing powder charges. It's not so much the method as the consistency of the method that gives the best results.

    I have an RCBS Jr. press that I've had since I was 18 (long time ago) and it strokes to the top then stops.No apparent cam-over, but I have never put an indicator on it to see for sure. I use a Harrell's combo at the range which does not have cam-over. Over course this is for reloading. The BSS press obviously has intentional cam-over.

    The top benchrest shooter Mr. Boyer was visited by a friend after a match. He was in his trailer preparing for the next match, and he was trying each piece of brass in his chamber for "feel". You want to feel the bolt close on a case so you know it hasn't been over sized, but you also don't want the brass loose in the chamber. He had one piece that was a bit too tight, so he ran it into his sizing die (which all the brass had been through) but he left this one in the die for a minute, then checked it again. It then felt the way he wanted.......

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronraad View Post
    That's a little gold nugget right there, thanks Houndog!

    Just goes to show that we can beef everything up, but our tooling and equipment materials still go elastic before they go plastic.

    We're you concerned at all that 'fast stroking' might have exceeded the operating forces of the spring mechanism in the dial indicator. Readings would have obviously fluctuated more so at speed, but were they possibly exaggerated? Much like using a dial indicator on a lathe, you normally hand turn the spindle as opposed to running it at 2000 rpm.

    It would have been interesting to see the area under the curve so to speak, comparing fast and slow stroking. I keep thinking that a pressure gauge or a load cell might be more appropriate, but something is mostly better than nothing, as long as you're aware of it's limits.

    Spoke to a local swager this month about his collection of hydraulic presses used to make bullet jackets from 17 to 30 cal. Apparently he has a robotics engineering background etc.; and spent quite a few years getting the presses running consistently with various PLC controls and gauges as part of closed loop feedback system. Although he was quite happy to discuss some of his observations for a J4 plant tour he did in the 80's, but after 20min I pretty much got the impression he was taking everything else to the grave.

    It's frustrating knowing where the nuggets are buried, but still out off your reach. What's even more frustrating is that some people don't appreciate that their equipment, tooling and knowledge only has value, if others exist that understand it's value; and are therefore able to give it a place in the community. Sharing is the only chance small scale bullet swaging has from going under because we are only treading water at the moment. Anyone thought about what will happen when the Corbins both go, and the will go, we all have to go eventually. Regardless of what you think of their products and services, they still make up a significant part of the supply chain and without them the shift in balance could shrink our community past the point of no return.

    Apologies to the OP for going off topic (as I often do), but if you spotted a gold nugget aside the path; I'm sure you'd stop (if safe to do so) and take at least a quick look.
    Aaronrad,
    I don't think we fast stroked the press fast enough to disrupt the indicators. Most folks outside of formal benchrest circles have never herd of Ferris Pendell, but he was 1/2 of the team that came up with the 22 and 6mm PPC and he also designed the Remington Benchrest bullets along with Mike Walker. This bullet design later became the prototype for Sierra.s flat based bullet lines. He was probably the absolute best tool and die machinist I've ever had the pleasure of knowing and he would gladly pass along his know how to anyone interested. I own several of his original PPC reamers and a few dies in different configurations than what became the "standard" PPC. One has a 40 degree shoulder that we just ran in .080 deeper than normal on an F class rifle. My best friend won several matches with it over the time he used it. I am VERY greatful for the mentoring I recieved from folks like Ferris, Jef Fowler, Ed Watson, Robert Hart and several others and am doing my very best to pass their knowledge on to others just like they did me.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houndog View Post
    Aaronrad,
    I don't think we fast stroked the press fast enough to disrupt the indicators. Most folks outside of formal benchrest circles have never herd of Ferris Pendell, but he was 1/2 of the team that came up with the 22 and 6mm PPC and he also designed the Remington Benchrest bullets along with Mike Walker.
    Sorry was the jealously coming through that obviously. Just the opportunity to sponge knowledge out of Mr Pendell for a few hours in conversation, let alone actually see him at work to better understand his methodology and thinking must have been, well an opportunity not to miss. Did you realise it at the time?
    Last edited by aaronraad; 05-04-2015 at 09:14 PM.
    Be careful what you aim for, you might hit it! Antipodean Industrial - Home of the G7L projecitles

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    Boolit Buddy aaronraad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B R Shooter View Post
    Great discussion folks! Very interesting that not only the cam-over, or stop has effects, but speed and "hang time" does as well. So it seems this falls into the same scenario as throwing powder charges. It's not so much the method as the consistency of the method that gives the best results.
    It's interesting that you mention powder. I have a feeling that lead cores act more like a compacted powder in a HIP/CIP process when being swaged to size, than they do like a compacted metal or even liquid? There is almost like a certain amount of bounce taking place and slip planes causing differential pressure transfer from the top to the base and radially from the lead into the die walls. A similar effect seems to take place during core seating, especially when you look at how a boat-tail forms? Effectively the pressure you exert isn't being distributed evenly.
    Be careful what you aim for, you might hit it! Antipodean Industrial - Home of the G7L projecitles

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronraad View Post
    Sorry was the jealously coming through that obviously. Just the opportunity to sponge knowledge out of Mr Pendell for a few hours in conversation let alone actually so him at work to better understand his methodology and thinking must have been, well an opportunity not to miss. Did you realise it at the time?
    One of the great things about old school Benchrest shooters is just how friendly most of them were/are and how free they are with information! I got to know many of these men from BS sessions after a match, having a meal with them or just visiting in the campground. It's an awesome experience sitting in a BS session with the best of the best and listening to their discussions about the finer points of some aspect of the shooting game.

    I got invited to Ferris'es home after a match held close to his home and naturally got a tour of his shop. From that visit on I got to know him fairly well. Awesome is the best single word I can use to describe him and his wife. When he passed friends got the first shot at buying his tools and equipment. The pieces I obtained will be with me untill the day I die.

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    Houndog, sent you a PM.

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    Boolit Mold
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    I believe and what works for me is consistency in using the press, being cam-over or stopping short of that point. I started out 30 years ago with Blackmons BSSP dies and press with much success and great bullets for my shooting. I did sell off the presses and dies and acquired a Sea Gert and .22 and 6mm dies from Richard Corbin. Great set up and I turn out some very satisfactory bullets for my informal shooting and varminting. Again consistency works for me while I cam-over the handle at every stage in creating bullets once you have everything set up.
    Last edited by forwardgunner; 05-04-2015 at 11:15 PM.

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    This might need to be a sticky. Theres already a lot of information in this thread that would be so useful to new swagers.

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