Who is/are the Expert(s) on the 1841 "Mississippi" Rifle?

[Grump]

My Google-fu has just about tapped out everything I consider reliable on these front-stuffers.

A few questions still remain, like the role, if any, of the 183-whatever "Peace" flask, that was made for YEARS after the 1841 was adopted, played in the usage of that and other rifles and smoothbores of somewhat contemporaneous usage.

I'm already familiar with the 1855-onward modifications to the 1841, and since my interest is PRE-Civil War usage that stuff is a bit boring. To me. To each his own and maybe it will spark more interest in me later.

There being no serial number on these, tracing any individual rifle's movements seems a bit problematical, but methinks that at least some info on "Arsenal/Contractor X made YY,YYY of these in year 18ZZ, of which so many went to the feds, that many to state 1, and the rest were mixed between state and local militias in state 2".

Were any sold off before the War of Southern Attempted Desertion?

Anyway, any help you can give to point me to someone who knows a whole heap about these things would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[fouronesix]

One of the best references for this category of US arms from 1840-1865 that I am aware of is American Military Shoulder Arms- Vol III by George Moller- published 2011. Packed full of info about these including the M1841. There are any number of other references that may highlight certain aspects or archival snapshots of any particular model, but this is one of the most comprehensive.

For fast, easily accessed general info on any particular US model, I usually grab Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Arms. For detailed info on any particular Mexican War to Civil War era long arm, I go to the George Moller Vol III reference. There are also reprints of issue Military manuals out there that describe proper care, loading and handling of some military models. I use one for historical reference for the M1863 called the Rules of Management and Cleaning for the Rifle Musket Model 1863 . I don't know if there was one for the M1841. The Civil War was, by necessity, about the first time for large scale US Military standardization.

Now, finding exact usage connecting any one model of firearm to any one model of flask is a much smaller subset of collector/historical interest than even the small arms group. There are those who specialize in flasks and there are reference works for them.
Any book source search of Amazon or B&N will show those.

If we were talking British small arms, you'd be flooded with info down to the smallest detail of minutia. You could probably find a large group of historians and equally large associated reference works dedicated to "the varieties of nipple picks used during the immediate post flint era"…. or some such

[Grump]

Yeah, the combination of the British Pattern Room and a near-German penchant for documentation, in periods of peace and prosperity between wars, would make them write histories ad absurdium, eh?

Thank you for the pointers to published works of better reliability.

[texaswoodworker]

Were any sold off before the War of Southern Attempted Desertion?

You mean the War of Northern Aggression? :P

[Grump]

You mean the War of Northern Aggression? :P

Yeah, but remember that history is written by the victors...

[doc1876]

But rarely the truth. Case in point: Sand Creek, & Wounded Knee.

[dondiego]

You can win many battles and still lose the war!

[Hanshi]

And remember that the M1841 was named the Mississippi rifle and not the Illinois rifle or the Pennsylvania rifle, etc.

[Zouave 58]

Grump, You might try Googling the American Precision Museum in Windsor Vermont; they are in the original Robbins and Lawrence factory and have actual gauges and machine tools used to manufacture the US Rifle Model 1841 (nobody ever made them in Mississippi, and to be correct about the matter, they were actually called the "Mississippian's rifle. Actually, there were many,many regiments other than Jeff Davis' that were issued the rifle during the Mexican War- Jeff must have had a better publicist). There is a lot of info in Civil War Guns by William B. Edwards, now out of print but available through used book sources. There are several variations of the Rifleman's pouch that had a white buff cross strap with strap hangers for the Peace Flask that were continuously issued with the rifle up until the 1855 cartridge box was adopted, S&S Firearms in Glendale New York sells a good quality reproduction of one of the variants. There was a very complete text published back in the 1970's on the '41 that might be available from a book locating service, unfortunately, I lent my copy to somebody who never returned it, and the title and author's name escapes me. Back in my mis-spent youth as a dealer in US Martial arms I owned dozens of 1841's including a flat new Robbins and Lawrence; all of the 1841's were beautifully made guns that are a joy to shoot. Hope my rant helps...

[fouronesix]

Grump,
You may have looked at this, but here's a link to a short, very basic overview of basic military uniforms, equipment and accoutrements put together by Cole.
http://www.history.army.mil/html/mus...survey_uwa.pdf

[BPShooter]

Grump,
You might want to go to n-ssa.org and ask your questions.I've been told, the chances of a book ever being published on this arm is slim, for various reasons I won't go into.

[Grump]

Inquiry into the museum.

Wish I knew where my BYU Bud Sim was these days. He usta be curator of the museum in Cody Wyo, but I got the impression that he really didn't need a day job after he left that to open a gun shop.

[fouronesix]

Here's a couple of more links of interest.
One is an excerpt from Firearms in American History by Sawyer- beginning on page 141.

The other is a presentation by Richard Johnson.

There are references to the use and issuance of both the cartridge box and the pouch with flask during the period of use of the M1841.
Also mentioned are standard charges for the M1841- 75 gr for the PRB and 50 gr for the various Miniés.

https://books.google.com/books?id=TY...201841&f=false

http://americansocietyofarmscollecto...45_Johnson.pdf

[doc1876]

Grump, not that I am home, I can help instead of just give you flip answers
United States Firearms, The first Century 1876-1875, by David f. Butler has a good amount of info. It seems that Remington had their first contract of 5000 in 1847, @ $13 each. They made approx 1000 a month, the Ordinance Dept then awarded a contract for 7500 additional rifles. They kept manufacturing them into the Civil War (what is Civil about War?) and the pattern morphed into the Zouave Rifle. ppgs 82-85, and p 140
as for the flasks, I don't have anything there.
IF you want to learn somethings about the war, find out just why the South fired on Ft. Sumter......Lincoln did some fast shifty tactics similar to the guy we have now.
Doc

[Grump]

Thanks for the further info.

So, what rifles or muskets ever had a "standard" charge of 95-105 gr of BP?

It just doesn't make sense to me to have a three-position adjustable powder flask spout start almost 1/3 larger than the "standard" load, to be poured into a separate measuring tube or whatever and have spare powder spilling about.

[doc1876]

are you talking of the shot flask? They had three positions, the charging flasks usually had a removable spout that could be interchanged.

[fouronesix]

Grump,
I have two or three originals (none a Peace or martial type though) of that type full sized flask with the adjustable spout. Usually they'll have the zig-zag adjustment notches for throwing different charges with the notches marked something like 3 through 6 (dram eqs)- as is marked on the American Flask & Cap pictured below. It's always been my understanding those were used primarily for charging BP ML shotguns.

I also have an original full sized flask with that type spout but for much smaller charges ranging from about 35 gr BP up to 50 gr BP which would have been appropriate for small to medium caliber rifles. I usually see references to 1850-54 dated martial flasks by companies such as Batty as being associated with the M1841. Obviously earlier dated flasks would have been used for the Mexican War. Whether or not those flasks had spouts regulated to exactly the standard charges for the M1841 (or any other martial arm)…. I have no idea. Even though these martial flasks are considered "military issue", they were made by private companies to what may have been very "general" parameters and specs…. like the powder charges an adjustable spout may throw. So it's entirely possible you have a martial Peace flask that was carried along with an M1841 rifle. But the flask's spout may be capable of throwing a charge too large or charges inconsistent with the standard charges for the M1841.

When the US was attempting to outfit regulars and militias for and during the Mexican War, Jefferson Davis' units were issued cartridge boxes (for paper cartridges) for their M1841s. While other units were issued pouches and flasks for theirs. Davis' main concern was not the ammo (in whatever form it came) but an adequate supply of percussion caps

If you have a setting on your spout that throws a charge of 100 gr BP, that is equivalent to about a 3.65 dram charge…. which is in the ball park for med-heavy field loads for 10-12ga shotguns.

After the Civil War, all kinds of military equipment held in or returned to arsenals was disposed of as common milsurp. Bannerman's was one of the better known milsurp dealers in such a business. Tracking back these type items ranges from extremely difficult to impossible. That's why any Civil War or similar older item increases in value astronomically if the provenance can be locked and verified. I have an M1861 Navy that was issued to a Union blockage ship in the Civil War. That rifle "disappeared" (possible sold off as surplus) after the Civil War. It's found on the Chinese border during the last stages of WWII, is recovered by a US soldier and is brought back to the US as a "war souvenir". Sometimes you just have to fill in the blanks best as possible with usually sketchy records or lost history. But sometimes it presents itself in some unbelievable way… as happened with the M1861 Navy. Go figure!

Here's a couple of pics of an American Flask and Cap Co flask with the 3-6 dram adjustable spout usually associated with charging BP ML shotguns.

[Grump]

Oh, it's definitely and powder flask and was used as such. BP residue all over the inside and the cut-off looks suitable for only powder.

[fouronesix]

Grump,
IIRC, you mentioned Peace flask earlier. That can mean either an original, likely made by Ames or Batty and could be dated anywhere from the 1830s through the later 1850s. It could also mean you have any of a number of repro Peace flasks dating from the late 1960s to the present. The original martial flasks will have at least maker mark, date and the initials of the gov. inspector. The repros may have few if any definitive markings.

If you do have an original Peace flask with the adjustable spout, it could have been used with or issued for any number of military firearms. It could have been used for more than one type or caliber of muzzleloading military arm- from old flintlock smoothbores, flintlock smoothbores converted to percussion- many of which would be 69 caliber. Maybe for the M1842, 69 cal percussion smoothbore. Maybe for a smoothbore converted to rifle. Maybe for the M1841, 54 caliber. Maybe used with yet a different caliber altogether. It could have been pressed into service during the Civil War and used with any of those arms with the most common being the .577 and .58 calibers using a standard charge of about 60 gr BP under a Minié.

Here's a link to a brief on Peace flasks with some good pics of the most common makers like Ames and Batty.
http://armscollectors.com/mgs/peace_flasks.htm

[Grump]

Thanks, fouronesix.

It is a Batty flask dated 1850. No signs of being fiddled with, but I used to imagine "what if" about Italian repro BP revolvers possibly dug up 300 years from now with all their markings rusted off...BEFORE Mark Hoffman was artificially aging forged writings with period ink on early 1800s-era paper he had located. My wife and I each have our own "brush with history" on that one.

The point is that if it was fiddled with in 1853, that's so long ago that few people could identify it.

The museum has forwarded my inquiry to two of the 'sperts they use. I'll look up your link and we'll see what the next week brings.

???Anyone know what the standard charges were for those heavy-recoiling .69-caliber smoothbores??? I'm pretty sure they took more than 75 grains.

NOW I gotta go get calibrated in drams too, I guess. Meh.