45-70 Hodgdon load question

[Fatdaddy]

I ran a few factory loaded Winchester 300gr. over the Chrony and they ran around 1650 fps.

[Fatdaddy]

..I am more comfortable at 40,000 or under in lever guns. Interesting read here http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

Very interesting read.
I think I can see the writing on the wall....
I'll be pulling the remainder just in case.
Thanks for that M-Tecs

[MBTcustom]

The later Marlin 1895 rifles can take more sauce than you can (generally speaking. Don't push your luck).
Not that I recommend doing this (I do not) but I ran 350 grain jacketed through a chronograph at 2400 FPS. I can easily shoot 70 rounds of 300 Win Mag in one sitting from a Remington BDL, but those hot 45-70 rounds finished me after five. Never again.

Meanwhile, I find that a 400 grain cast bullet pooping along at a stagnate 1500 FPS to be enough penetration and knockdown power to drop any animal in the world without even getting excited about it. It just rolls over and hits the snooze button.

Shooting Marlin big bore is a different shooting philosophy. Rather than depending on speed, it depends on mass and the load data reflects that. With modern rifles in smaller calibers, the weight and design of the rifle has nothing to do with it. It's not bullet vs. rifle design, it's bullet design vs. speed. For many modern shooters, it's all too easy to skip to the page of the book that deals with velocity and ballistic coefficient, because bullet mass and rifle shape do not play a role atall.

A man with a Marlin 1895 is thinking along a whole different set of parameters. For him, it's all about the rifle and the big honking bullets it dispenses at an alarming rate of fire. What I have found, is that the straight stocked rifle is much more pleasant to shoot than the pistol grip stock. It's quicker to the shoulder, and it's quicker to return to line of sight than the pistol grip stocks. Add to that the fact that it cycles 400 grain projectiles so fast, you can empty the gun of all five shots in a matter of seconds, while making hits on target. Member Milkman and member lars45 have been to the range with me when I "had a little fun" with my guide gun, and they can attest to the speed with which I can deposit 6 pounds of lead in the berm.

The Marlin 45-70 guide gun is second in my top five list of the most powerful shoulder fired sporting rifles in the world, considering weight vs. downrange destruction potential (Trumped only by a Springfield M1A converted to 358 Winchester). I have extensively tested these systems and found the 45-70 to be the most forgiving and versatile rifle for the cast booliteer, and really the most useful for hunting dangerous North American game.
The only thing I have found that will stop a 405 grain bullet is about 3-4 feet of berm dirt. At only 1500 FPS, it has blown confetti out of a tightly bound stack of four soaking wet phone books. It has passed right through a large round hay bail (it was wet also) from any direction and still have enough energy to kill game on the other side. It has blown chunks out the opposite side of a 12" diameter telephone pole (not in use, but acquired from the local power company).

Of course, I realize this has nothing to do with the discrepancy in the load manuals, but the above is why I never gave it a second thought. I just look for the loads that give me the best results at a speed that isn't just adding insult to injury, and for me, 1500 FPS is all I want, and far more than I would ever need.

[upr45]

Lots of good information has already been passed on, the most unforgiving issue in Marlin 1895's is OAL. Keep it under 2.55", nose profile may shorten that, and do test feed from the tube. In 300gr pills the oal is usually not an issue(if you crimp at the crimp grove). The 45-70 is usually my first choice as I hunt deer in thick cover. I load 405gr's to 1600-1700 fps and find recoil quite manageable. Several medium burning powders will get you there. The blunt force trauma it puts on a critter is incredible! I have taken 405's to about 2000 fps and nearly lost fillings in the process. I very much prefer the tamer loads in the 405 gr range for hunting. If you want to see an amazing fireball try H335 with your 300 gr pills.

[lar45]

Being as I wasn't having any pressure signs, I put a few over the Chrony today: 2227 fps and 2226 fps.

Just my opinion, but I don't think that you would get any pressure sings until you were atleast double the listed pressures for the Marlin.
Just my 2 cents

[BruceB]

Just to inject a sense of proportion for the more-daring among us:

The .404 Jeffery cartridge made its STERLING record on African BIG game with a 400-grain bullet at..... 2125 feet per second. I chronographed Kynoch factory loads in my .404, and that is precisely the speed they delivered.

There's only a bullet-diameter difference of .423" to .458", after all.... not very much.

Now, do we REALLY need .404 Jeffery ballistics for deer,(elephant/rhino/buffalo loads) especially when fired from a seven-pound lever gun?

I didn't think so.....

[EDG]

>>>The Marlin has basically three small pieces of metal holding that bolt in place behind the cartridge, maybe 3/8" thick at the widest point and thinning dramatically behind the forward "lug" on the lever. I guess I can include the pivot screw that holds the lever in position as part of the overall support equation. <<<

The guy that wrote the article was somewhat out to lunch on the 336.
He neglected the .307, .356 and .375 rounds that are all high pressure and were chambered in the 336.

He seems to think this is all that keeps a 336 bolt in place.



Most importantly he does not recognize that the bolt is not locked by the lever. The bolt raises a locking block at the rear of the action. The poor old writer seems to think every thing is held together by the lever cross screw.

Note the locking block that engages the back end of the bolt.

[fouronesix]

Originally Posted by Fatdaddy
Being as I wasn't having any pressure signs, I put a few over the Chrony today: 2227 fps and 2226 fps.


Lar45 "Just my opinion, but I don't think that you would get any pressure sings until you were atleast double the listed pressures.Just my 2 cents"

Whoa!… Unless I'm missing something here- better re-check that statement and the numbers. The data I'm looking at for 45-70, 300 gr Jbullet loads indicates the top end max loads for the Ruger #1,#3 class is about 2200-2300 fps with pressures ranging 35,000-39,000 CUP. Doubling those pressures would be 70,000-78,000 CUP.

[lar45]

You are exactaly right, my post was not specific enough.
I was thinking of the Marlin 1895.
I lost my old Speer #13 manual, so I'm just going off of memory(which isn't the best,
When do you get flattened rifle primers? 65k+ psi ? Or worse, cratered primers?
The 270win has a max of 65k, so shouldn't flattened primers be more than that?
when does the head of the case show signs of pressure, the head visibly flowing into the bolt face anywhere?, 75-80K psi ?
If any of the above is not correct, please feel free to post the corrected info. As I'm just going off of memory here.

Originally Posted by Fatdaddy
Being as I wasn't having any pressure signs, I put a few over the Chrony today: 2227 fps and 2226 fps.


Lar45 "Just my opinion, but I don't think that you would get any pressure sings until you were atleast double the listed pressures.Just my 2 cents"

Whoa!… Unless I'm missing something here- better re-check that statement and the numbers. The data I'm looking at for 45-70, 300 gr Jbullet loads indicates the top end max loads for the Ruger #1,#3 class is about 2200-2300 fps with pressures ranging 35,000-39,000 CUP. Doubling those pressures would be 70,000-78,000 CUP.

[Duckiller]

I would call Hodgdon and discuss these loads and the apparent inconsistency. There 2015 magazine manual lists the same loads. Remember trapdoor loads in black powder killed a lot of buffalos. Are you hunting something bigger than a buffalo? For your assistance the 49th Lyman manual lists for 1895 300gr :Start 36.0 gr @17000psi for1688fps Max 41.0 gr @24800psi for 1780fps. Ruger #1 , same bullet: start 49.0 gr @24000psi for 2047fps, max 55.0 gr @35200psi for 2347fps. All with IMR 4198. Pulling these loads and starting over is not a bad idea. For what it is worth I tend to load my 1895 t0 starting trap door loads to minimize recoil and have a good time putting holes in paper.

[fouronesix]

Here's the data from Lyman 48th and 49th editions. Warning and maximum load section for 45-70, 300 gr Jbullets and only for level 3 guns including Ruger #1 & #3 and suitable Mauser bolt guns.

[CPL Lou]

Just to understand how much pressure the 1895 action can handle, look up .450 Marlin pressure data.
Also, look up the pressure levels the .444 Marlin and .30-30 Win pressure levels.
Just a thought.

CPL Lou

[M-Tecs]

The 450 Marlin is 43,500. Bolt thrust isn't the real issue with the large cartridges but the thin barrel wall becomes an issue. Most of the pics of blown 1895's show the bottom of the barrel blown out.

The MAP for the .375 Winchester is 52,000 PSI.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

[lar45]

I have not torn one apart, but to what I understand, the 450 has V type threads, where the 45-70 has the older Acme style, or square, threads which are deeper and might be why the actions blow out the bottom?

The 450 Marlin is 43,500. Bolt thrust isn't the real issue with the large cartridges but the thin barrel wall becomes an issue. Most of the pics of blown 1895's show the bottom of the barrel blown out.

The MAP for the .375 Winchester is 52,000 PSI.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

[fouronesix]

Who knows when any one gun or design will fail or sustain some damage. Pushing the ragged edge of the design, in this case the basic Marlin 95 that's rated to a more or less "safe" max of about the oft quoted 40,000 pressure (many sources actually list the "safe" max closer to 30,000 for the W86 and M95 lever actions), seems popular in the last few years.

Pushing that ragged edge simply invites one of the three possibilities for failure or damage- the case, the chamber or the action- take your pick. I think it boils down to moments of testosterone and bragging rights…. "my 45-70 is just as powerful as your 458 Win Mag"…. etc. Or see, my 45-70 will shoot through so many inches or feet of material (fill in the blank_________) wood, dirt pile, water jugs, telephone pole, junk car body, "any animal on the planet", and so on supported by any number of quaint anecdotes.

[Fatdaddy]

Who knows when any one gun or design will fail or sustain some damage. Pushing the ragged edge of the design, in this case the basic Marlin 95 that's rated to a more or less "safe" max of about the oft quoted 40,000 pressure (many sources actually list the "safe" max closer to 30,000 for the W86 and M95 lever actions), seems popular in the last few years.

Pushing that ragged edge simply invites one of the three possibilities for failure or damage- the case, the chamber or the action- take your pick. I think it boils down to moments of testosterone and bragging rights…. "my 45-70 is just as powerful as your 458 Win Mag"…. etc. Or see, my 45-70 will shoot through so many inches or feet of material (fill in the blank_________) wood, dirt pile, water jugs, telephone pole, junk car body, "any animal on the planet", and so on supported by any number of quaint anecdotes.

I have a couple of reloading manuals to draw from but I have a computer out in the "Boolit Hut / CRB Land" that I generally just pull load data from Hodgdon's site. I just naturally started in the "Lever Gun" section for working up a load.
It wasn't until after I'd worked up a load and was done shooting when I discovered the inconsistent (questionable) data.
I shot 6-8 of these with 55gr of I4198 and didn't have any issues but probably won't shoot anything even close to that hot anymore.
I don't load anything to max loads recommended to give some headroom.
It gets to a point to where you're getting diminished returns in FPS/charge weight anyway not to mention most accuracy is usually found somewhere between min and max.

[JesterGrin_1]

I am sorry but I have to restate that you will not see pressure signs in a 45-70 Government chambered in a Marlin 1895 until it is far above the capabilities of the Marlin 1895 action. One does not need to push any 45-70 Government load in the Marlin 1895 to those extremes for good performance as mentioned by good members here. Also you will not enjoy the recoil that will be generated by said rounds.

I worked with my Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70 over a pretty good range of bullet weights in my own humble opinion both cast and jacketed. And I will say that I found the accuracy was not nearly as good with a 300Gr jacketed round next to a Hornady 350Gr Jacketed Round nose. I felt the reason for this is the simple fact that the 300Gr bullet is almost square compared to the bore size. For my type of hunting in South TEXAS I chose the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC and the Hornady 350Gr RN. I also used the Ranch Dog 425GR RNFP/GC to good effect but it is way more bullet weight than I need for what I do.

As for speed I will state that I was using a load with H-322 in both the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC and the Hornady 350Gr Round Nose that was going around 1950 FPS or so. And will have to say they are not fun loads to shoot off of a bench. And I had to go with a Scout Scope set up as not to draw blood on both ends as in if one is not careful you could get a nasty scope eye with a regular mounted scope. The Hornady 350Gr Round Nose with a scope would give me 3/4" groups at 100 yards while the Ranch Dog 350GR RNFP/GC will give me better groups than that at 100 yards.

I slowed the Ranch Dog 350Gr RNFP/GC way down with 15.0Gr of Unique and found that they are still very accurate at 100 yards and fun to shoot but I have yet to take any game with said load. I hope to take a Hog soon with this load.

[1trapper]

Has anyone developed a load for an "original" (as in old) Win. .45-70, 1:20 twist, .457 bore? I've been working on it but would sure appreciate some input.

[tdoyka]

Hodgdon Powder Company Cartridge Load Recipe Report - 1/27/2015

45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifles)* Load Type: Rifle Powder: H4198 BW: 405

Cartridge Information
Case: Winchester Barrel Length: 24" Twist: 1:20" Trim Length: 2.100" Primer: CCI 200, Large Rifle

45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifles)* Cartridge Load Data				Starting Loads			Maximum Loads
Bullet Weight (Gr.)	Powder	Bullet Diam.	C.O.L.	Grs.	Vel. (ft/s)	Pressure	Grs.	Vel. (ft/s)	Pressure
405 GR. CAST LFP	H4198	.458"	2.540"	27.0	1251	14,200 CUP	31.0	1459	17,100 CUP

45-70 Government (Trapdoor Rifles)* Cartridge Load Data				Starting Loads			Maximum Loads
Bullet Weight (Gr.)	Powder	Bullet Diam.	C.O.L.	Grs.	Vel. (ft/s)	Pressure	Grs.	Vel. (ft/s)	Pressure
405 GR. CAST LFP	IMR 4198	.458"	2.540"	30.0	1370	17,000 CUP	32.0	1462	19,000 CUP

[1trapper]

OK...thank you. Guess that's a good place to start. That would be Group I loading data and since the Win. 1886 sits in Group II I can probably goose the loads up a bit.