45/70 bullet

[redbullitt]

I am planning to do a subsonic 45/70 barrel for my Encore, and I would like to find a good bullet mold to use.

I plan to use it for medium/longer range target shooting and a bit of suppressed hunting (deer sized game). If necessary I can go with 2 molds, 1 with a rounded nose and maybe one with a big flat nose for game.

Noe has one listed on the last page, a 535 grainer with a good BC that looks pretty tempting. Maybe something like that but heavier would be the way to go?

Since my velocity limit will be about 1075 FPS, I would like to get as much mass as possible into the projectile. I will wind up getting the barrel from Match Grade Machine, so they can do whatever twist is necessary.

The heavy bullet will also help me fill the case up for better load density... I am thinking 45/70 if I can get a heavy and long enough bullet, but the 460 mag case may work a bit better since it is about .5 inch shorter.

Let me know what you guys think!

[MBTcustom]

Cool idea!!!
My personal opinion, you need look no further than the molds used for shooting at the speeds you are going with accuracy in mind. Look at what the BPCR boys are launching.
Like this for instance:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/814...ProductFinding
Awesome idea.
Let us know how it works out and please shoot a video!

[btroj]

How far out do you intend to shoot? Longer the range the heavier you might want to go. A 535 gr bullet will be plenty even at 1050 fps.
Go 45-70, it will let you shoot lower weight bulelts at higher speeds easily.

Have you though about powders? Gonna need to go light charges of faster powder to shoot em that slow. Even 2400 might be too slow for those speeds although with a real heavy bullet like that it could work. Unique and Trailboss might be the best bets. Take that for what it is worth, I don't shoot bullets that heavy in my 45-70 and never went for subsonic either.

Have fun.

[Echd]

I shoot the Lee 500-3-R from my Contender loaded with unique and get good accuracy. I would have to look up the load but it isn't very hot. Lots of fun to shoot!

[redbullitt]

Thanks! If all goes well and I can get this thing together and shooting properly I plan to suppress it (hence my subsonic quest). Should be a blast to shoot either way though. Definitely will get some video and keep y'all up to date!

I am not very worried about supersonic performance or lighter bullets in this rifle, as I have the Marlin for that!

As far as range, i would like to shoot it as far as I can at my steel targets. Right now we have a range set up to 600 yards; I have had moderate success (good hits on IPSC torso sized targets) with the 300 whisper with a 247 cast out to 350 yards, but I have been itching to get something a bit steadier in the wind and with more oomph. I have seen a couple scopes with mil marks clear up to 25 mils or so lol, so I think it would be fun to really push it out there a bit when I go to the big 1k range in the summer.

I was looking in my lyman manual... with around 40g of Varget they listed 1200 fps or so I believe it was, but out of a long long barrel. I think I will wind up with a short heavy barrel on this rifle, 16 or 18 inches maybe at most. That should knock off a lot of that extra velocity. I figure those big bullets sit about .6 inches into the case or so. I poured 40g of Varget into a case and it looks like I would be right about 1/4 of an inch under the bullet! That is better than I get in a lot of other loads that perform well in other calibers. 25g of 5744 gave a touch better than 2/3 case fill under where the bullet ought to sit. Did not have any trailboss to check out.

Do any of you guys have experience with Mountain molds? I was checking out that "mold maker" thing on his site and it was really neat to see. Any suggestions in that regard would be appreciated as well since I am fairly new to long range cast boolits. The only trouble I was running into is that the calculator would not let me get the bullet any longer than 565g or so... apparently the mold cavity would not accommodate the length.

I have heard tell of a few people using a 50/70 brass case to launch 750g 50 BMG bullets at around 900 fps using h110 or LG.... 50-70-750 it was called. Something like that using a big big cast bullet may be the simplest and wildest lol. I am already tooled up for 4570, but would have to get a mold either way. The 50 would just mean new type of brass to go find. This would give the option of massive cast bullets and massively aerodynamic massive jacketed surplus bullets as well.

What do you guys think?

[Artful]

I think you have a fun project ahead of you.
405 grain over 16 gr of Trailboss is a good load for subsonic
- I don't have one for a heavier boolit - make sure to shoot thru some cardboard
up close to make sure you get clean round holes before putting on your suppressor.

Video from down under

[longbow]

Well, no personal experience but I have had a desire to make a .44 "whisper" using a very heavy boolit in .44 mag. but seated way out. Kind of a wildcat without forming cartridges.

While looking around for boolits several years ago I found this design by Richard Gunn:

Subsonic .45 Colt.pdf

I 3D modeled it and scaled it down for .44 and .358 but due to lack of toy money, I have not gotten a gun made up yet. I was thinking of a long throated .44 mag. in a single shot or possibly converting a Lee Enfield to .444 Marlin.

Anyway, I have been intrigued by the design and figure it would be ideal in a .45-70 as so much boolit would be inside the cartridge with the crimp groove where it is. I guess that depends on chamber and throat as well but using the boolit to displace volume in the cartridge for light powder charges seems like a good idea to me.

Not quite the 500+ grains you are thinking of but the design could be lengthened to add weight if you wanted.

Personally I think 480 grs. with a nice meplat is good enough for me. Scaled down to .44 it runs about 400 grains.

I have posted this design a few times when this subject comes up in the hopes that someone will try it out. If I ever get to it, my plan is to have Accurate Molds make the mould for me.

Food for thought anyway.

Longbow

[Artful]

with a 1:20 marlin barrel it should be stable at 1000 fps or even lower.
Even the Springfield "Trap Door" (1-23") should be able to use it.

[longbow]

Well, there you go! Just about the same as the Gunn design?

Do you have that mould Artful? Do you know how it performs?

One day I may get to mine. In the mean time I will be following threads like this.

Longbow

[Artful]

No, I don't - I just looked at what you put up and went - hmmm I saw something like that before.

[shooter93]

I do quite a bit of sub sonic shooting with a suppressed 45-70. Of all the powders tried unique was the easy winner. The case is a bit long if you're never going to shoot above 1100 fps but it is very accurate with unique. The 530 grain bullet we tried didn't work to well but that's not to say it won't in yours. Our wasn't the NOE but rather a different style which I think was the problem. 520's worked extremely well. At 300 yards it sailed through a pressure treated 6x6 like it wasn't there and that wasn't s very hard alloy. It's a thumper for sure and no recoil with the suppressor.

[Artful]

shooter93 who's suppressor are you using and what's the thread pitch on your barrel to mount it?

[Lonegun1894]

I love these kinds of projects..

[Wayne Smith]

How much sight adjustment do you have on that Encore?? Long range subsonic requires a lot of vertical sight adjustment.

[shooter93]

I'll have to check the thread pitch for you. We got these a number of years ago.....a 30 caliber first for a 300 whisper and later the 45. Both are from SSK. They work well...the 300 sounds like a 17 caliber air rifle depending what is surrounding you. I may actually try making one next. The 45 caliber one is larger than the 30 but manageable. The barrel for the 300 came from him as it's on a contender. The one for the 45 he gave us the dimensions and we turned a barrel to work. His thread at the back and "slip" fit at the front and cover most of the barrel.

[redbullitt]

Hopefully get as much elevation as possible lol. There is a company called Murphy Precision that makes scope bases and rails to whatever specs you want. I have one on my 22 LR and 300 whisper with 40 MOA of cant built in. Add something like that to a good scope and nice tall mil reticle i think I should be able to get to at least 500 yards without too much kentucky windage.

The 300 whisper is quite predictable at 300 yards with a similar setup. Shootable with holdover and dialing to 450, but the wind really really makes it challenging out there lol.

Just talked with match grade machine today via email. Probably going to get a nice heavy 16 inch barrel in 45/70. Looking really hard at the 535g bullet Noe offers. May eventually go the custom route if anyone can make me anything bigger. The couple places I talked to could not get a bullet longer than 1.4 inches into their mold blocks...

Thinking a 1/16 twist, but also just considering the 14 twist since I may be tossing these at 900 or so FPS, especially if I find a heavier long range bullet. Most of my quiet shooting is definitely the quietest with bullets traveling less than the typical 1050 FPS people go for. Even at 1050 FPS bullet RPM with the 14 twist will be notably lower than my other cast bullet rifles. BUT maybe still not at all ideal for cast bullets? What say you guys?

Stability is paramount for this rifle as a suppressor hopefully will be involved. I'd hate to launch it downrange with my lead lol.

Do the big bore rifles react similarly to twist/RPM as say a 30 cal 300 whisper or 308 win?

Shooter, did you ever try any of the slower powders in your sub 45/70? It would be noisy compared to your unique loads I am sure, but varget is listed in the LYMAN manual's trap door loads, and offers very low pressure and what looks like excellent case fill.