45-70 Hodgdon load question

[Fatdaddy]

Today being Presidents Day, I took the day off to celebrate.
I cleaned and trimmed all the 45-70 brass that I had on hand to load some 300gr pills for the 1895 Marlin.
When I pulled the load data from Hodgdon's site they had 3 categories for the 45-70:
Trapdoor, Lever Action and Modern rifle.
I selected a starting load from the Lever Action section and worked up to some teeth shattering loads that almost got some blood from my eyebrow.
I was sitting here tonight looking at the load data again and selected the load data for Modern Rifles, just being curious as to how much higher the loads were over the lever action loads.
To my surprise the max data for the Modern Rifle loads for a 300gr bullet was lower (53gr of IMR4198) than the listed start data (53.7gr IMR4198)for the lever action data.
The COL is longer for the Modern rifle loads but something just doesn't seem to make sense.
Maybe I just assumed the load data for the modern rifles would have a higher charge/velocity listed.

[Gunlaker]

I just had a look in my paper copy of their data from 2011. Mine shows a max of 58.5 gr for modern rifles and IMR-4198 using the 300gr Sierra.Those loads at pretty stout. I've shot some of the hotter loads for the 400gr Speer bullet out of my Ruger #1 and they definitely get your attention .Chris.

[TXGunNut]

All I can say is that the round and my rifle are capable of much more than I'm willing to endure. I lose interest pretty fast as velocities pass 1800fps. Critters I hunt don't need that much killing.

[fouronesix]

Always a good idea to cross-reference load data against more than one source- the more the better.

I just looked at the 45-70 Lyman data which is also broken down by three categories- Trapdoor, Win 1886 and Marlin 1895, Ruger #1 and #3.

Max load for Win 86 and Marl 95- IMR 4198- 41 gr- 300 gr Jbullet--- 24,800 CUP

Max load for Ruger #1 and #3--- IMR 4198- 55 gr- 300 gr Jbullet--- 35,200 CUP

[Artful]

Always a good idea to cross-reference load data against more than one source- the more the better.

+1
Always remember the reload books are just a few experiences with a few rifles - sometimes just one universal receiver - That's why different reloading books don't agree with each other. An that's why you cross reference.

[tdoyka]

i use a handi rifle that can do lever action loads. i don't!!! i use the trapdoor load section. h4198 is what i use. over 1500fps is not good for me and my stroke-abled shoulder!!!

[rr2241tx]

Maybe it's just me but 4198 of either flavor at any useful muzzle velocity in a 45-70 is just volunteering for a whipping. A caseful of FFg compressed enough to seat a soft alloy plain base boolit will get the job done.

[smokeywolf]

I've gotten real good results with Unique in a Trapdoor. Prefer 3031 in the model '86. 4198 does seem to deliver a slightly more violent recoil; faster burn and maybe faster ignition.

[jednorris]

I tried 300 gr. Valiant bullets in my 1875 Sharps and for the life of me, I could not get them to shoot accurately. I moved to 405s and they stabilized considerably better. My manuals stated I could shoot up to 44.0 Gr. of I.M.R. 3031 but the recoil was excessive. I settled on 34.0 gr. of 3031 and my 405s can keep a 2.5 M.O.A. group at 200.

[fouronesix]

Rel 7, 3031 and 4198 are common powders for med-high performance 45-70 loads. 4759 and 5744 work much better for milder, Trapdoor level loads.

[Fatdaddy]

I started with the recommended 53.7gr and worked up to 55gr and still had no pressure signs...
here's the load page from Hodgdon's site:

Looking at my Lee Manual, it lists 41.2gr as max for a 300gr. bullet.
It's spooky that there's that much difference...

[DLCTEX]

I let a friend shoot one of my RD 420 gr. warm loads in our guide gun. After that one I couldn't get him to try 340 gr. mild loads. He was done.

[Rick Hodges]

I tried H 4198 in my 45-70....violent recoil and muzzle flash way out of proportion to velocity. I stopped using it. I like H322 for 1880 fps with a 300 gr. jacketed bullet in my Guide Gun.

[bikerbeans]

if you are going to run stiff loads in your 1895 I suggest you make sure the brass you are using is the same brand used to generate the load data. The case capacity of 45-70 brass varies a lot between the different manufacturers.

BB

[groovy mike]

I use H322 for my plinker loads and 3031 for hunting loads - For what it is worth my olf V2 Hornady manual suggests 34.7 grains as a max load of 4198 for a 350 grain bullet at 1500 fps. No load for 4198 with a 300 grain bullet is listed but 53 grains would be far far above anything on teh 350 grain chart.

[Fatdaddy]

I wonder where the numbers listed came from and why they seem so disproportional to at least a few other sources....
I will probably pull the last 10 or so I have loaded and revisit with the start data in my Lee 2nd edition.
This should be plenty for the 180lb white tail and paper targets in my area.

[fouronesix]

The recent (last 2-3 editions) Lyman manuals have fairly good data that does separate the 3 load classes for 45-70. Nothing wrong with looking for used load manuals by various companies. I have a pile of them dating way back. Every time I see a load manual in used condition I try to grab it if a decent price. Plus not every manual by various companies will or can have all bullets or powders. The very nature of such manuals kind of limits how much they can test or publish or wish to.

For example: can't expect Speer to publish a bunch of data for bullets they don't make nor can Hodgdon be expected to publish data for all their powder competitors. The little Loadbooks series are very good and they are pretty cheap even when new- about 6.50 ea from Midway

[Fatdaddy]

Being as I wasn't having any pressure signs, I put a few over the Chrony today: 2227 fps and 2226 fps.

[osteodoc08]

I personally like a healthy dose of Varget behind a 405gr WFNGC design. 405gr at 1750fps will put a hurtin on both ends. Shoots 1 to 1-1/2" groups with a 2x7 scope at 100yds all day long too. It's good stuff.

[M-Tecs]

For the 45-70 Govt SAAMI only has one spec. That is 28,000 CUP and it is considered safe for the Trapdoors. http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/206.pdf

The various load levels are truly just recommendations as to what the loading data developers feel is safe for that type of firearm. Opinions vary widely. Lyman lists 18,000 as max for TD's yet some others go up to the 28,000 SAAMI for TD's. On the high end for new 1895 some data goes up to 45,000 for 45-70 1895's.


I am more comfortable at 40,000 or under in lever guns. Interesting read here http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm