Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[apen]

Thank you Rick for your input. I appreciate it.

[apen]

One day a friend brought out a new S&W in .45 ACP. We both sprayed a 25 yard target. Down in my basement I found the gun was good but kept looking at the little case. I told John the primer is too much so I went to the lathe and cut bushings for a SP primer. He went down and was shooting 1" groups at 25 yards.

Now why didn't Brian Zins or the AMU think of that? Those wacky inept clowns...

Gun writers only advertize today. Look at a gun test and see a full page ad next. They do no work, use factory loads provided free. Just make money for the rag. Most rags are done with one session on the toilet. You need a $1500 scope or a $5000 rifle to shoot
Look at my Marlin 30-30 with cast at 100 yards using 3031 and a Fed 155 LP mag primer, only three shots, darn sorry for that. You can not shoot cast with rifle powders, need Unique or 2400. Need a LR primer. Need a LP mag in the .44---WHY, because it says MAG on the case!Attachment 129401 who is Brian Zins? Is he smarter then you?

I missed that last question. He might be smarter than me, I don't know. Being smarter than me isn't exactly a bragging right. He shoots a 45 auto round every now and then and uses a LP primer. He might be on google or somewhere, but I don't know.

From what I've seen in my experience with bullseye pistol is that unless you are shooting a tuned gun or a at least a top tier factory gun like les baer (I have no idea why wilson was ever mentioned here...never seen one on the line), you don't have a snow ball's chance in hell of winning even at the club level with a decent turnout. WORLD'S of difference between a stock 1911 and one that's been tuned. A springfield mil spec tuned up costs less that a baer and will shoot every bit as good for a lot less.
I don't know what goes on in handgun silhouette. Maybe that's entirely different.
In F class, unless you are using a premium barrel, you might as well pack it up too. That's at a minimum with F class. I know some factory smith model 38's do very well at 50.
I understand not wanting to discourage anyone from getting all they can out of what they can afford, (I'm trying to get all I can get out of my ruger SBH) but the fact is from what I've seen, premium accuracy comes at a monetary cost and not just a cost in time and energy alone.
Again I've never shot silhouette, so I can't say that isn't so there. Maybe that's an exception.

[ole 5 hole group]

From what I've seen in my experience with bullseye pistol is that unless you are shooting a tuned gun or a at least a top tier factory gun like les baer (I have no idea why wilson was ever mentioned here...never seen one on the line), you don't have a snow ball's chance in hell of winning even at the club level with a decent turnout. WORLD'S of difference between a stock 1911 and one that's been tuned. A springfield mil spec tuned up costs less that a baer and will shoot every bit as good for a lot less.

Agreed, except maybe for that Springfield - I guess it would depend on who's doing the tuning, as it can get expensive to bring that Springfield down to 2.5"s or better. Baer turns out some fine pistols and there's a few slightly used Baer's on the market every now and again going for a lot less than the asking price from 1911 Heaven - they used to have the best prices??

Both of my PII's go under the 1.5" option by a couple tenths and I had the slide milled for a deltapoint and use the tip of the delta as my aiming point and it does quite well. I had the back-up sight added just in case it might ever be needed, as the back-up sight can be seen through the aimpoint glass and used if the battery ever went out - the back-up sight is regulated to be dead-nuts on at 50 yards with typical ball 230 grain velocity. I took the photo to show the deltapoint, but it always comes out looking like a dot - damned if I know why or how to correct that.

When you bring that puppy up and look for that rear sight - that aimpoint delta will be looking you in the eye. There's no learning curve to bringing the pistol up and coming on target. As far as I'm concerned, a milled slide with a red dot is the best thing going since sliced bread.

If you use a strip of good electrical tape between the battery and 1911 frame, you'll get longer battery life.

[44man]

Fine setup there. I fully agree about the 1911 and most nine autos are trash at the target. The most accurate nine I ever shot was a WWII German pistol.
But you forget I was talking about the S&W ACP revolver. Brand new gun. My friend also has a 1911 I built for him, new slide, barrel, bushing and internal parts on an 80 series Colt. It will do 1/2" at 30 yards and a SP primer extended it to 50 yards.
The difference in 1911's is minimal but the revolver really worked better. The LP was pushing the boolits out too soon before ignition.
Most 1911's will see no difference.
One 1911 factory gun that did 1/2" at 50 was a DW, I shot Creedmore. But my friend never, ever loads the same loads or boolits so it has never been done again. Even when I was shooting, he had no idea what he loaded.
You should see my load book, it is 5-1/2" by 4" and only has what each boolit a revolver shoots. There is one load for each boolit only, not pages of trash.
I can tell you how to load the .44 with from 240 jacketed to 330 gr cast but you will fight and argue because you read in some rag that you MUST do this or that.
I admit a SBH is not quite as accurate as a SRH and both are better then a RH. But all can amaze you. The big problem is DOUBT. You already made up your mind and are defeated before you start.
I bought the RD 265 gr mold--just because! My old SBH does this with it. It is my original IHMSA gun with near 80,000 rounds through it.Attachment 130844I hit the rail with one shot so aimed higher for the last. The can was 100 yards.

[robertbank]

ole 5 hole group thanks for the post. Your Aimpoint is exactly what I am looking for. I intend to build a relatively inexpensive Open gun for IPSC using the M&P CORE V Comp as a base. The optic sight is the sight of the future and I don't doubt as prices come down and quality goes up we shall start seeing them on defensive handguns and perhaps even in the hands of police departments. Such a sight reduces the learning curve considerably.

I have an inexpensive Spark optic mounted on a Beretta Storm in 9MM and it is amazing what options the optic provides.

Take Care

Bob

[wquiles]

I bought the RD 265 gr mold--just because!

Jim, that is the same bullet I am using in my Ruger for those 50 and 100yard targets I showed earlier in this thread, that I shot with the red dot. So far my revolver likes that bullet

[44man]

Jim, that is the same bullet I am using in my Ruger for those 50 and 100yard targets I showed earlier in this thread, that I shot with the red dot. So far my revolver likes that bullet

I love it too. I use 22 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer. I use Felix lube. I don't think any deer will be standing with it either. I am not good enough anymore to see what the RD can really do.
You do know the Lee 310 was designed by one of our members and it is also a wonder. I use the same lube with 21.5 gr of 296, Fed 150 for a deer buster deluxe.

[michaelcj]

I didn't get through all 24 pages on this thread but the several I did read ave me the general gist, I think, of the varied perspectives.

I've had to "Qualify", as part of my employment, twice yearly, for going on 40 years now.

In my much younger days I also competed, on our department team, in the old Police Practical Course using a Davis converted SW10. In those days the "long" stages were at 25 and 50 yards [supported off a barricade at 25 strong/weak and most of us went prone at 50.

Stages then were at 3, 7, 15, 25, and 50.

Blowing out the X was pretty common at 15 and under and keeping everything in the 10 beyond was the trick to place.

Next Saturday is Qualify day and now my carry is a 2" SW10 and we only shoot to 25. I'm happy to keep X to 9, 15 and under and minute of Silhouette [BG] at 25…. I'm a lot older… and it seems the eyes are moving quicker that the rest.

I occasionally carry a 1911 and same applies.

Off today for some warm-up for next Saturday…. wish me luck.

MJ

[cbrick]

Off today for some warm-up for next Saturday…. wish me luck. MJ

Welcome to CastBoolits MJ.

You bet. Show'em older guys rule. Can't be letting those little whipper snappers out do ya.

Rick

[apen]

Fine setup there. I fully agree about the 1911 and most nine autos are trash at the target. The most accurate nine I ever shot was a WWII German pistol.
But you forget I was talking about the S&W ACP revolver. Brand new gun. My friend also has a 1911 I built for him, new slide, barrel, bushing and internal parts on an 80 series Colt. It will do 1/2" at 30 yards and a SP primer extended it to 50 yards.
The difference in 1911's is minimal but the revolver really worked better. The LP was pushing the boolits out too soon before ignition.
Most 1911's will see no difference.
One 1911 factory gun that did 1/2" at 50 was a DW, I shot Creedmore. But my friend never, ever loads the same loads or boolits so it has never been done again. Even when I was shooting, he had no idea what he loaded.
You should see my load book, it is 5-1/2" by 4" and only has what each boolit a revolver shoots. There is one load for each boolit only, not pages of trash.
I can tell you how to load the .44 with from 240 jacketed to 330 gr cast but you will fight and argue because you read in some rag that you MUST do this or that.
I admit a SBH is not quite as accurate as a SRH and both are better then a RH. But all can amaze you. The big problem is DOUBT. You already made up your mind and are defeated before you start.
I bought the RD 265 gr mold--just because! My old SBH does this with it. It is my original IHMSA gun with near 80,000 rounds through it.Attachment 130844I hit the rail with one shot so aimed higher for the last. The can was 100 yards.

I haven't given up yet 44 man. I'm still trying to get all I can out of my SBH. I'm not reading anything in magazines. I bought the hornady die set like you recommended. It is a superior set compared to my lyman. I use a standard primer just like you recommended. I don't crimp nearly as much. All these things have produced better results. I am listening to you. You have taken the time to answer every single question I asked in PM's. I don't expect results like yours overnight. You've spent years working on it. That's a great target.
If I question something it isn't meant as an attack. If something doesn't make sense to me, I question it.

I agree that person can be quick to say something is impossible.

Two years ago I never thought I could do this



10 shots off hand at 25 yards. Timed fire...5 shots in 20 sec...mag change and another 5 in 20 sec. That was the last timed target of the last match last year.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Randy

That is an exceptional well thought out post and very good advice to live by.

Joel

Joel: I had hoped more people would read it and comment as in reading this thread which has gone 20+ pages in a month and a half I see a lot of people who are on both sides of my post.

I really don't agree with posts that pillage another member as FOS, and especially when they digress to pure name calling. I feel this is very misplaced when the member even posts pics of his accomplishments to support his claims.

Now, I realize that a picture is not always absolute proof in every case, but it is close.

By the same token making outlandish claims without proof kind of invites ridicule.

Maybe if people chose their words a little more carefully we could all still be friends.

Another point is that if you are proven wrong, you need to fess up and indicate that you made a mistake. This is normally what you would do in person unless you are one of those *****s who will never admit they are wrong.

Doing it here breeds respect.

A man that won't admit when he is wrong,,, is a fool.

Anyone who thinks they are always right is an idiot and a fool.

Randy

[jonp]

Id be quite happy with that group using iron sights. Some people ask their guns to make up for poor shooting skills on their part. Any factory pistol short of custom or really high end that groups like that with hand cast would seem to me to me to be pretty darn good

[jonp]

If you want to kill the thread it's fine by me. If the other guys sign on so do I.

Some me of the premises needed contesting. I figure that's well accomplished by now.

Im pretty sure he wasnt talking about killing the thread and you should read runfive's post. Its about as clear a warning as it gets unless i am totally off the mark

[apen]

Agreed, except maybe for that Springfield - I guess it would depend on who's doing the tuning, as it can get expensive to bring that Springfield down to 2.5"s or better.

800.00 with a kart barrel fitted, slide tightened, 3.5lb trigger job, slide drilled and tapped for marvel mount, and a long trigger installed.

530 for NIB mil spec. That's 1350. It's a solid 2" gun at 50 yards

Dave Salyer did the work

[M-Tecs]

The OP's original question was Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality pertaining strictly to iron sight revolvers, no scopes or other optics so this next link is a little off the mark but it does deal with the reality of cast boolit accuracy. Here is the link to the current National Records for Cast Bullet Benchrest. http://castbulletassoc.org/nationalrecord/natrecord.pdf

Long Range Handgun (LRH) is the closest to the subject at hand and the 5-AGG groups give that best insight as to what was repeatable to set a National Record. Note these are scoped brenchrest handguns and a long way from an open sight stock production revolver. Current 5-AGG National Record is 0.6785" for LRH. Tom Acheson shot it in 6/24/06 in Aledo, Il. I have meet Tom a couple of times. Very nice and helpful man.



The rules are here. http://castbulletassoc.org/pdf/Offic...ompetition.pdf
5.6 Handguns – Any handgun authorized for use in CBA competitions must be designed to be supported by the hands only and chambered for a center-fire cartridge. Any safe trigger may be used. Barrel length and weight with sights attached are governed by the class within which the handgun is entered. Barrel lengths are measured from breech-face to muzzle except for revolvers where the overall barrel length shall govern.
5.7
(a) Long Range Handgun - Any handgun having a maximum barrel length of 15
inches and a maximum weight of 7.0 lbs. (3.18 Kg) is allowed.
(b)
Unrestricted Pistol - The rules are the same as the Unrestricted Rifle Class, except that a legal pistol action must be used. No butt stock is allowed. No restriction on weight or length of barrel.
5.7 Sights – Any sights without restriction as to material or construction are permitted.

[Seancass]

The OP's original question was Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality pertaining strictly to iron sight revolvers, no scopes or other optics so this next link is a little off the mark but it does deal with the reality of cast boolit accuracy. Here is the link to the current National Records for Cast Bullet Benchrest. http://castbulletassoc.org/nationalrecord/natrecord.pdf

Great post. Parts of this thread make those records seem pretty soft, somebody better go beat them asap.

[robertbank]

Reality....what a concept. Thanks for posting. Those records are with scoped custom revolvers! Those folks have talent.

Take Care

Bob

[M-Tecs]

Equipment isn't listed but the ones I have personally seen have all be custom single shots. The Fowling Shot does provide equipment lists. I have not seen a revolver in the equipment list but I don't follow LRP closely.

[MarkP]

My XP-100's, BF's, and Contenders always out shot my revolvers by a large margin. This is using jacketed bullets. Iron sighted to iron sight and scoped to scoped comparisons. I do not have any single shots chambered in straight walled cartridges to allow for a more unbiased comparison. I do have a Remington M 788 in 44 magnum that has shot some 1-1/2" groups at 100yds, but that is the exception and not the rule. In addition, it is usually windy here in the Great Plains, which will cause larger variation in groups size with the relatively low BC hand gun bullets.

I can say with certainty that at least (2) bullet manufacturers did not have an accuracy specification for handgun bullets. The QC process involved dimensional, weight, and expansion criteria to be met or exceeded before being package for resale. Unlike rifle bullets that were required to meet or exceed an accuracy specification. However, rifle bullets of similar construction and geometry to handgun bullets such as intended for use in a 444 Marlin, 375 Win would on occasion shoot extremely well rivaling match bullets. The specification for the 444 / 375 bullets was less demanding as compared to hunting bullets in bottle neck cartridges, and much less than match bullets. I would suspect if samples of handgun bullets were pulled from lot numbers or form store shelves and shot for accuracy many would not meet the specification for 444 / 375 type bullets. Keep in mind the tests are performed under controlled conditions inside with equipment that is designed to reduce or eliminate human error.

[M-Tecs]

I do not have any single shots chambered in straight walled cartridges to allow for a more unbiased comparison.

Interesting test here http://reloadingtips.com/pages/exp_b...b-accuracy.htm on plain base verse bevel base in a 357 Mag Contender with 8X scope. It does have some jacketed control group data.