Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[cbrick]

Sorry reading between your lines gave me the impression that you don't buy some of this either. Maybe you need to reread what you posted and see if you can see where I got that.....try rereading post number 285 where you say "Every time? Probably not........"

Very simply meant that there are bad days at the range. I sure have them and I'll "assume" so does most everybody else. There are days when I'm doing nothing but wasting ammo, just pack up & go home. Takes mental discipline to do what you know your supposed to be doing, some days it's just not there.

Pretty doubtful the revolver is having a "bad day" so that leaves me. Frustrating but it happens.

Rick

[35remington]

No doubt. That's why I do the multiple groups on the same target thing. Eliminates doubt and proves I can do the same thing repeatedly

[robertbank]

Hhmmm . . . edited the post, below in red is what was originally posted.



Please, do tell me what I think!

The posted group is reality. At least it is for those that haven't convinced themselves and try to convince others that it's not.

Rick

Shooting a revolver with a scope off a rest is not shooting 1/2" groups with an off the shelf revolver with iron sights. You know that and so do eye. My LE Longbranch did 1 1/4"at 100 yards when I scoped it. Six inches with irons. The claims that have been made here using iron sights are nonsensical. There is a $100 wager on the table. Go for it.

Take Care

Bob

[dvnv]

"Im with Hickok: 1.5-2" groups at 25 is pretty dang good for me"

FWIW, I agree. I also believe revolvers can shoot much better than most people think.

[44man]

Shooting a revolver with a scope off a rest is not shooting 1/2" groups with an off the shelf revolver with iron sights. You know that and so do eye. My LE Longbranch did 1 1/4"at 100 yards when I scoped it. Six inches with irons. The claims that have been made here using iron sights are nonsensical. There is a $100 wager on the table. Go for it.

Take Care

Bob

You do not take our age into consideration. Back then I could focus the sights AND the target. Now there is a fuzzy Grinch beating my sights but back then I could see .001" off at the sights.
I would hang a 1-1/2" steel from a chain and hit it every shot with my Wichita 7R at 150 meters. Open sights, Creedmore. Now I can't see a stinking water bottle at 100.
But like Rick, I was also there. You toss money in the pot but I am 77, go back in time and try that! I would make a lot of your money. I would shoot against you with an open sight revolver against your scoped rifle at 200 meters. I know Rick could do it too.
I shot with the best at IHMSA, Josie Engle, Boyd Carpenter, Blacky Sleeva and more. If you think they could not shoot 1-1/2" groups at 200 meters with open sights, shame on you. Wins came to how many chickens were hit at 200 meters, the rest of the targets were to be eliminated. Miss one and you are done. You lost with 39 out of 40 no matter how many chickens you hit. Ever see a steel chicken over your sights at 200 meters? Look at the period here.
One day after the shoot I put a cardboard chicken at 200 meters (216 yards) to get sight settings. I had two shots left for my SBH and took them.Attachment 130496 Shot low but look and see. Open sights, Creedmore.
You do not know! Tell Rick he is full of it. You should listen to him.

[44man]

The load for my .44 was the Hornady 240 SIL bullet with 23.5 gr of 296 and the Fed 150 primer. NOBODY out shot me with a revolver.
Then we were done shooting but my friend asked if I wanted to try his MOA in 7BR. I signed up again and shot a 40 with his gun. Later he sold it to me for $300. I found better loads and it is the one I got a 3/8" group with at 100 yards for 5 shots. I still have the gun. Anyone want to shoot it, come here. I hit a five gallon water can at 500 meters every shot, 12 shots.

[35remington]

And yet all these super claims have absolutely zero to do with what the stock revolver is capable of for an average.

They do not shoot that well as the most common situation. A more realistic appraisal is needed. Pardon if I steer the thread towards said reality.

If you want to contest that, my suggested multiple groups on the same target would do more to establish credibility than all of the extremely doubtful things said so far. I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

[cbrick]

Pardon if I steer the thread towards said reality.

Absolutely correct but to finish your unfinished sentence . . . Steer the thread towards YOURreality.

Rick

[robertbank]

44man I am not doubting there have been excellent rounds shot at matches in the past, present and future. But please don't tell me an out of the box revolver is capable of shooting 1/2" groups at 50 yards with iron sights. I should point out 3 shots is hardly a group. Five would be the minimum. Claiming the same thing at 100 yards is even more fanciful.
We all had our days in the sun. Whether it be bullseye shooting, long distance shooting, golf, curling or squash it was fun while our skills and bodies were at their peak. That was then and unfortunately for many of us this is now. But doing one thing once is not doing it all the time. In over 30 years of golfing I managed to break par four times in my life on an 18 hole Golf course. Happened over a space of two decades. Those four rounds hardly makes me a par golfer nor does it suggest everyone can do it with practice. The difference is folks at the top of the game do it all the time. In handgun shooting the top shooters aren't shooting 1/2" groups at 50 yards with stock revolvers using iron sights. Sorry they are not.

Nobody here wants you at age 77 to attempt a feat you might have pulled off in your prime but don't claim you shot 1/2" groups at 50 yards using iron sights on demand with stock revolvers back in the day cuz it isn't selling.

Take Care

Bob

[35remington]

As a opposed to 44man's reality, cbrick, I sure am. I have always said his claims are not credible

Now, how about those multiple groups on the same target I suggested to write your own reality if you dislike my suggestions so much?

[Lonegun1894]

Rick, I apologize but I am NOT trying to call you out, but just to make a point.

In the end, here is the way I see it. Keep records of your range trips. I am no Rick, or Munden, or Keith. But you know what, I am better than I was when I started shooting 32 years ago now. I am better than I was a year ago. And I am better than I was 6 months ago. My days of "competition shooting" were in the Service, so I have a different perspective, cause it wasn't a game. I still work to improve my performance, weather that is defensive shooting, hunting, or target work. Frankly, I don't expect to ever shoot on their level, but I am not ruling it out either. I see their shooting as something to aspire to match (or even beat), even though I can't currently do it (yet). If I get to that level, great, if not, so be it, but I have still improved. I am an above average shot based on what I have seen at the ranges I have been to, but have also seen enough shooters that could do amazing things that I know I am not anything special.

In the end, I compete against me, not anyone else when shooting for group size. Now if I ever have to defend myself again, I will be competing against the threat, but at the range, I want to beat what I did the group before, and the week before, the month before... You get the idea. Make sure you consistently shoot better than you did last week, or last month, etc. And keep improving.

[44man]

You can have a bad gun but most of my shooting was with out of box with a trigger job ONLY. Our revolvers today are very good but some of the old ones are hard to beat. When I buy a gun, I expect it to shoot. Almost all will.
And YES, I did shoot 1/2" groups all the time with revolvers at 50 meters. Open sights.
I learned the revolver, what and how to feed it. I did not read gun rags or believe anything printed.
I really wish you guys would see just how good a revolver can be. Would I buy a Ruger today, You better believe it. Would I send it off to be a custom? Not on your life.
Then I found BFR's. Oh my!

[cbrick]

Rick, I apologize but I am NOT trying to call you out, but just to make a point.

In the end, here is the way I see it. Keep records of your range trips. I am no Rick, or Munden, or Keith. But you know what, I am better than I was when I started shooting 32 years ago now. I am better than I was a year ago. And I am better than I was 6 months ago. My days of "competition shooting" were in the Service, so I have a different perspective, cause it wasn't a game. I still work to improve my performance, weather that is defensive shooting, hunting, or target work. Frankly, I don't expect to ever shoot on their level, but I am not ruling it out either. I see their shooting as something to aspire to match (or even beat), even though I can't currently do it (yet). If I get to that level, great, if not, so be it, but I have still improved. I am an above average shot based on what I have seen at the ranges I have been to, but have also seen enough shooters that could do amazing things that I know I am not anything special.

In the end, I compete against me, not anyone else when shooting for group size. Now if I ever have to defend myself again, I will be competing against the threat, but at the range, I want to beat what I did the group before, and the week before, the month before... You get the idea. Make sure you consistently shoot better than you did last week, or last month, etc. And keep improving.

By golly I think you've got it.

Even when I was competing I competed only against myself. I knew what I should be doing, I knew what I was capable of doing because I had done it and nothing less was acceptable. Once I was finished I'd check the posted scores to see how I did against others. Rick's biggest coach, biggest cheering squad and most of all his biggest critic was Rick.

Never settle, if you want to improve you will. Well, you will unless you've convinced yourself that any better is unrealistic in which case your pretty much stuck with mediocrity.

Good for you Lonegun, keep after it.

Rick

[cbrick]

As a opposed to 44man's reality, cbrick, I sure am. I have always said his claims are not credible

Now, how about those multiple groups on the same target I suggested to write your own reality if you dislike my suggestions so much?

You've made no suggestions much beyond striving to be the best you can be is unrealistic. Very poor advice for those reading this that would actually like to learn something.

Rick

[35remington]

Cbrick, I asked you to not to misrepresent what I said. Never ever said not to try your best. Drop the windmill tilting please and stick to what I said.

Guys, is it so hard to realize that outrageous claims lacking substantive proof are never believed?

Guys who can shoot as well as they claim would somewhere have multiple
bughole group on the same target......because they claim that is the typical situation.

Yet somehow over a career of shooting this never happened once that you can dig up. That fact makes all the claims smell just as bad as we suggest.

i will spend a 400 dollar airline ticket to view these half inch wonders. If your stock guns can't put up, you pay for my time there, coming and going.

if I'm wrong I post for all to see. I'm sure you'll decline.

[robertbank]

44man I love my Rugers, their design is modern and certainly capable but they are, from the ones I have seen and shot, kit guns. True they come to you finished to the point where they will go bang every time and if you shoot jacketed bullets they should be able to provide adequate accuracy but consider this, and I have posted this before.

1. Rugers have a well deserved reputation for having tight chambers. Three of the chambers on my GP-100 would not allow a .356 bullet push through them and the other three would not allow a .357 bullet to pass through. The forcing cone was cut 5 degrees and the barrel remains slightly constricted due to over torquing the barrel to frame to get the sight aligned correctly. The gun shot jacketed reasonably well but less than I would have expected off a rest, in my hands. A trip to the 'smith and the gun became a shooter. No more lead shaving off the forcing cone. The hammer is now shimmed. Life is good. My Blackhawk convertible suffered from exactly the same maladies. You would have been lucky to hold an 8.5" x 11" paper at 50 yards using lead builets. Not now. The chambers are all cut properly as is the forcing cone.

Great guns. Great company. Ruger I expect has decided to offer a reasonably finished gun at an attractive price point. If you are inclined you can spend a couple hundred dollars more to finish the gun or you can shoot it as is but you get the gun a couple hundred dollars less than what it would likely cost Ruger to pull the guns and correct the minor flaws the guns tend to come with.

So I am here to tell you on your best day you would not have shot 1/2" groups at 50 yards with either of these two guns or a number of others I have shot. Frankly, I don't think it possible for anyone alive or long dead to shoot a five shot string with an iron sighted box stocl production revolver inside of 1/2" consecutively or regularly. If Olympic shooters, using sophisticated shooting suits, and $5K - $10K Free rifles struggle to do it then I am darn sure you didn't on your best day. Let's leave it at that.

I am trying my best to remember what Thumper's mother said to Thumper when he first saw Bamby. I am afraid I am failing badly. I do apologize.

Take Care

Bob

[cbrick]

Guys, is it so hard to realize that outrageous claims lacing substantive proof are never believed?

Guys who can shoot as well as they claim would somewhere have multiple
bughole group on the same target......because they claim that is the typical situation.

Yet somehow over a career of shooting this never happened once that you can dig up. That fact makes all the claims smell just as bad as we suggest.

i will spend a 400 dollar airline ticket to view these half inch wonders. If your stock guns can't put up, you pay for my time there, coming and going.

if I'm wrong I post for all to see. I'm sure you'll decline.

Absolutely declined and on multiple counts.

First and foremost is that I have no reason to prove anything to someone that has in effect over and over again on multiple pages of this thread called me a liar. Were I to feel any need to prove something it would most certainly be to someone that I had at least a modicum of respect for, you do not qualify. My proof is sitting on my mantle, plenty good for me and you? You don't matter squat.

Next, not that it's any of your business but multiple groups on the same target is not how I practiced and certainly not how I competed. Since it's beyond obvious that your talking about something that you know less than nothing perhaps it would be wise to just bow out and quit trying to discourage others that are trying learn something and improve beyond your self imposed reality. To anyone reading this thread that has achieved any level of success in the shooting sports you are making yourself sound very foolish, I guess your ok with that.

Next and even less your business is that I haven't competed for 10 years. At that time age and 30 years with diabetes put an end to my competitive days.

As for me being a liar . . . I have achieved a level of respect in my chosen shooting sport. I was match director of the worlds largest silhouette club for about 9 years, I was president of that club for 5-6 years. I was NRA Chief Range Officer for 4 NRA National Championship Matches. My word is respected by most all that know me, why would I feel the slightest need or desire to prove anything to someone on an internet board that knows nothing about me but chooses to call me a liar?

Got it?

Rick

[44MAG#1]

I know people love, just love to ignore me, but, what are some of the limits that affect ones desires, or, are there any?
According to some on here there are no limits. But in being in a state of reality are there any?
If one has a desire to be another pistol shooting phenom can that be achieved since, evidentially, there are no limits according to some on here.

[35remington]

You seem to be getting upset in someone else's stead. It was not you that made the half inch at fifty claims I objected to.

If you didn't shoot groups to verify how can you say any particular group size is correct or not? Is it that hard to empathize with my point, which is that the vast majority of factory revolvers won't shoot like is claimed here for averages?

The unvarnished truth is they do not.

Ironically it is the very fact that I don't make outrageous claims that stock revolvers regularly shoot way beyond their capabilities as an average that I see as proof that I know precisely what I'm talking about. I know better.

Perhaps someone needs to call Ruger and ask them if most or even a significant percentage of their revolvers shoot as claimed here.

I did figure the offer would not get accepted. FWIW I am interested in the gun's capabilities, not yours. Whoever wants to can do the shooting.

[onceabull]

Bill this will not be tolerated.
You cannot call everybody on the site a Liar.
This is a warning from me and I'm sure there will be further admin. Punishment.