Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[35remington]

I've wondered that myself. Accurization services like Clark performs should have zero demand given the zillions of half inch fifty yard revolvers out there.

[cbrick]

How many shooting ranges doe you know of that is being overrun with shooters of that caliber?
We are now being realistic about reality and how it is perceieved and our perception of reality and realistic.

You have missed the point of my post completely and totally. Obviously the shooters doing that have years of practice and a strong desire to be able to do it and they have sent an unimaginable amount of ammo down range. IE they WORKED mighty hard to get there. That is NOT the point of the post.

They ARE USING STOCK OUT OF THE BOX REVOLVERs TO DO IT. That IS the point of my post. Too many people posting in this thread that the revolver cannot do it. There are far too many people that are doing it with STOCK revolvers to begin to think the gun is incapable.

So why do people make such posts? Very simply because they cannot do it and since it couldn't possibly be them it just has to be gun.

A poor mechanic ALWAYS blames his tools.

Rick

[35remington]

Can I shoot half an inch at fifty for averages? Sure....but not with a stock revolver, nor has anyone I've witnessed or heard of.

Feel free to prove your gun capable.

Absolutely unarguable point....nearly ALL stock revolvers are not capable of doing so.

Realism is often unkind. It is also better to gauge your revolver by.

[44MAG#1]

The KEY word that all this rests on is REALITY. While it is a REALITY that some can do it does not mean it is a realistic and commonplace occurance. I have been a member of a club that has had some high master class bullseye shooters that and have not seen the place being overrun with the half-inch guys.
THat is like saying: just because a certain driver can take a certain curve at 80 MPH in a curve hugging car that the majority of drivers can do it. Even in the same car. Glad that speed,limits are not set by the best of the best or the worst or the worst drivers.
Now let's talk realistic accuracy standards.

[45 2.1]

You have missed the point of my post completely and totally. Obviously the shooters doing that have years of practice and a strong desire to be able to do it and they have sent an unimaginable amount of ammo down range. IE they WORKED mighty hard to get there. That is NOT the point of the post.

They ARE USING STOCK OUT OF THE BOX REVOLVERs TO DO IT. That IS the point of my post. Too many people posting in this thread that the revolver cannot do it. There are far too many people that are doing it with STOCK revolvers to begin to think the gun is incapable.

So why do people make such posts? Very simply because they cannot do it and since it couldn't possibly be them it just has to be gun.

A poor mechanic ALWAYS blames his tools.

Rick

Rick, I think you have summed up the situation very well, especially the part I highlighted in blue. Most arguements here revolve around the same premise. Those that can (natural talent and those that work hard and persevere) and those that can't (the folks that haven't tried enough or long enough.... some of which usually end trying to buy there expertise with custom pistols guaranteed to shoot well) who have to blame something other than themselves.

[45 2.1]

The KEY word that all this rests on is REALITY.

Reality is demonstrated by the bell shaped distribution curve, straight out of a Statistics textbook. What it says in a very large sample, some people couldn't hit the barn from inside it to those that can drive the nails deeper in the boards with everybody else in between. Look it up, you might get some insight from it. Same thing happens with most things made by humans. And if you shoot a lot, some things get easier...... of course, you need to shoot enough to do that... and some folks don't.

[44MAG#1]

Statistic can be manipulated to show anything the gatherer wants to prove.
Now if one could prove that the majority of gun clubs are being over run with the Half-Inch guys by an entity that has nothing to prove either way I would say that Half-Inch guns and shooters are realistic.
Now, I know that isn't going to be proven so until it is it is not realistic. Maybe a reality since it has and can be done but not realistic.

[M-Tecs]

The quickest way I have found to get to reality is friendly little wagers. I have done this with long range claims and the grouping ability of rifles I build. Normally I like to put up a hundred dollars but I have going down as low a twenty to prove a point.

As a firearm and hunting enthusiast I often hear claims of shooting deer at a 1,000 yard etc. As a long range competitor I have access to a surveyed 1,000 yard range. When I hear bubba making these claims I make a wager and invite them out to the range. Through the years I have had only had three takers. Out the three two just handed me the money when they saw what a surveyed 1,000 yards looked like. The third did put a round down range but judging from the trace he hit the 200 yard berm. Some of the guys I compete with can make this shot often enough that I would never bet against them.

On the flipped side I build match rifles on the side. If I state it’s a ½ minute gun I am more than willing to put my money where my mouth is. I have had four takers on AR Match Rifles. I am up $400. Rules are 5 shots at a 100 yards with wind 7 mph or less. We both tape a c-note to the target and any targets ½” or less I keep. Anything over ½” they keep.

How does this apply to the subject at hand? I will make the same wager to any and all takers. Let’s do 10 targets at 50 yards using open sight stock revolvers for 5 shot groups. We will tape a c-note to each target. Anything over a ½”I get to keep. Anything a ½” or under you get keep.

2014 IHMSA world result, targets and rules below.

2014 world results http://www.ihmsa.org/2014-world-championship-results.html

IHMSA targets http://www.ihmsa.org/targets/ and http://competitions.nra.org/news-and...-programs.aspx

Rules http://ihmsa.org/uploads/3/1/0/9/3109400/2014_official_rules.pdf G. Tie-Breakers and Shoot-offs

[35remington]

As I said, I'm half inch capable at fifty with a scoped Contender and all the rest I can get.

What I and most other experienced pistol shooters likely have a problem with is suggesting half an inch at fifty is possible as averages with stock guns even with unlimited skills as the revolvers themselves can't do it

Sorry to break this incredibly obvious bit of information here....but they just can't. . In terms of revelations this is like saying the beach is often sandy.

Truly realistic expectations do not make the virtually never seen the norm. Many here would do well to remember that......and their claims would seem a whole lot more believable. The average intelligence of this board is higher than that.

Some must figure this usually goes unchallenged but that is a disservice on a thread like this.

[cbrick]

Statistic can be manipulated to show anything the gatherer wants to prove.
Now if one could prove that the majority of gun clubs are being over run with the Half-Inch guys by an entity that has nothing to prove either way I would say that Half-Inch guns and shooters are realistic.
Now, I know that isn't going to be proven so until it is it is not realistic. Maybe a reality since it has and can be done but not realistic.

Here's something very realistic for you. The mantle over my fireplace.

It has about a dozen National Championship trophies sitting on it. I EARNED them by working hard for years and using stock revolvers to do it.

Now instead of a lame attempt at convincing others and probably yourself that revolvers cannot do it I suggest you try the alternative. Work at it at 200 meters. Work even harder on your loads. Send 300-400 rounds down range every week for say the next 5-7 years. Until you make the effort and do the work yourself you have no basis for your claims other than YOU cannot do it.

Until you do that your right, not only is it unrealistic it is impossible. Well for the shooter, the revolver is right there waiting for you.

Rick

[44MAG#1]

Show me where I said revolvers cannot shoot half-inch at fifty.
I said it is REALITY because it can and has been done but it isn't REALISTIC.
If it is a realistic expectation for the average shooter show me the unmanipulated statistics to show me.
You can't. Nothing wrong with that though. Just being realistic.
Most shooters I know are either average or below.
I am just going by what I have seen at the club I belong to.
Most revolver shooters I know thinks 25 yards are stretching it as far as range. The only ones that shoot at fifty are the bullseye shooters.
I am the odd ball type and will shoot a 2 inch 38 Special at 100 offhand. Compact 45 autos at 100 offhand.
Now to say what I do is reality would be right because I do it and have done it but it it isn't realistic.
Just like what you do is reality but not realistic for the average.

[35remington]

cbrick, trot 'em out and put up. I already said I can do it......but not with a stock revolver. How is my ability limiting now? It's the stock GUN.

Here's some SORELY needed perspective for what it takes to group at a half inch at fifty. I mean.....really group a half inch, for an average, all the time.

First, get yourself a .22 rifle of sterling reputation, and not with a standard chamber, but rather a match or semi match chamber, well bedded with no known issues and a decent trigger and a suitable scope in a brand known for high accuracy. A custom barrel sure won't hurt. It is often preferable to single load into the chamber, if possible, to minimize any dings on the bullet......coincidentally, many match 22 rifles are single shots for this reason. Then, find yourself some high quality standard velocity ammo, preferably of the spendy match type. In all my work with a variety of .22 rifles, leave out one or the other of these two requirements (match barrel, good standard velocity ammo) and you're out of the running for an average of a half inch or below at fifty yards.

What does this combo have to offer? Well, velocities in the subsonic range for minimal aerodynamic disturbance, with high quality carefully made ammo consistent in velocity that gets a smooth start into the rifling because it's biting into the bullet before launch, minimizing the chance of an off center start into the barrel. The chamber really allows nowhere for the bullet to go except straight into the barrel, fired from a single chamber that is very little larger than the bullet and preferably very very minimally larger if things are to work as they should. .22 shooters must search hard and pay well for .22 ammo that meets this standard, even in a very good rifle.

In contrast, a stock Ruger or Smith revolver launches a bullet into the back end of a barrel, possibly off center, from one of five, six or more different chambers, with all the potential for misalignment that potentially follows, into a forcing cone that many will admit needs attention from the factory. Thread choke is also a factor with some revolvers. The bullet rides over the rifling at first for a while before it guides it, and the potential disturbance to bullet balance is far higher than for the .22 launched from a match chamber.

Stock means warts and all. The inherent accuracy of the stocker Ruger or Smith isn't even in the same ballpark as a match or semi match barrel .22 rifle firing match ammo at fifty yards.....and yet it's somehow believable that Smith or Ruger musta cranked out 50 or 100 of them by the time I was done typing this post that will equal that?

Don't you believe it!

I am completely ignoring the shootability of the rifle over the pistol in making this point. If I threw that in there it would sound even more ridiculous as a comparison than it currently does.

If it is implied that stocker Ruger and Smiths and Colts equal this as a matter of course and as a realistic standard to shoot for, well, that's when I wonder how it's possible to really think that that many people have no experience at all to contest the matter.

Tell you what. I'll take it easy on any takers. My High Standard Supermatic Citation with aftermarket match barrel and scope versus your revolver at fifty yards. That's known as throwing you a bone. Even this gun, with more accuracy potential than most handguns ever made, won't do an honest half inch at fifty.

If Clark is bilking his customers out of big bucks to make revolvers that won't beat that when regular 'ol Smiths and Rugers will do that no problem all the time, he must really be some kinda crook.

[robertbank]

35Remington I would lend you my GP-100 but it has been worked on I am afraid. Three of the cylinders would not allow a .355 bullet to pass through them the other three would not allow a .357 bullet pass through them. So the gun is not stock anymore. All the cylinders have been reamed to .3585 or so says my 'smith. Had that not been done it still would not have passed because I had to have the forcing cone cut to 11 degrees to allow for most of my lead bullets to enter the forcing cone with all of the lead they started out with. The gun has a 4.2 barrel on it if that matters and a FO front sight. If you want my Ruger Blackhawk you are welcome to use it bit it suffered the same way with tight chambers, all of which have been reamed out to .452 and the forcing cone has been cut.....sorry.

To Rick the question is not whether I or anyone else can shoot 1" groups at 50 yards it is whether a stock revolver can do it day in and day out. As an aside while you were practicing long range shooting I was working on a three handicap at golf. All it took was lots of practice and the right clubs. Unfortunately those days are over due to a lower back that took the brunt of those practice sessions for about 30 years. No heroes here. We all have our day in the sun if we choose to and have the desire but this subject is not about what individuals can do it is about what stock revolvers will do. Stock iron sights with a stock revolver from Ruger or S&W - I will include the Performance Centre guns from Smith and 35 Remington's C notes will only gain company.

Take Care

Bob

[dtknowles]

You have missed the point of my post completely and totally. Obviously the shooters doing that have years of practice and a strong desire to be able to do it and they have sent an unimaginable amount of ammo down range. IE they WORKED mighty hard to get there. That is NOT the point of the post.

They ARE USING STOCK OUT OF THE BOX REVOLVERs TO DO IT. That IS the point of my post. Too many people posting in this thread that the revolver cannot do it. There are far too many people that are doing it with STOCK revolvers to begin to think the gun is incapable.

So why do people make such posts? Very simply because they cannot do it and since it couldn't possibly be them it just has to be gun.

A poor mechanic ALWAYS blames his tools.

Rick

How many guns did they try before they found one that would shoot like that?

A cigarette pack at 200 m is 1 MOA by 1.5 to 2 depending on the pack, a half inch at 50 is just 1 MOA each way. That someone gets lucky and nails them all in the shoot off, shooting what could have amounted to a 1 inch group at 50 does not prove the point being made. How many times has someone clean 8 of these tiny targets in a shoot=off using a production revolver, were any of them S&W or Ruger. Were they sponsored by a revolver maker, did they get a select revolver, not custom just the pick of the litter. You would not have to even fire a lot of production revolvers to tell they are dogs, just look them over use some gages.

I hope you aren't claiming these kind of groups for cast bullets, CBA benchrest pistol competitors have trouble making those size groups.

I said in a similar tread, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, independently verified or don't be surprised if you are doubted.

Tim

[cbrick]

First Tim, I couldn't care less who may doubt it, that very simply has no meaning and it changes nothing. I have what matters to me, the trophy's. All the proof I need for me.

No there is no sponsorship or shoot for loot in handgun silhouette, strictly an amateur sport. All door prizes awarded at matches are given randomly and never based on scores, at time even guns. Anyone caught doing either would be banned from the sport.

Use the link provided in an earlier post and look at the results for International class revolver and the revolver make is listed for each competitor. Nope, not a Smith & Wesson listed. Couple of Ruger's. Many of the shooters use jacketed, a fair number like me use cast exclusively. The best wins for me were when I beat the best bullet money could buy including perfect 60x60 for a state championships. Learn how to load for a revolver and you'll do every bit as well with cast as you could do with jacketed. I've posted all of my handloading methods and numerous shooting tips here repeatedly for 10 years including in this thread. Most all of my casting and alloy info is on my web site - lasc.us. No secrets.

So doubt all you want, doesn't hurt my feelings and again, it doesn't matter and it doesn't change anything.

Rick

[dtknowles]

First Tim, I couldn't care less who may doubt it, that very simply has no meaning and it changes nothing. I have what matters to me, the trophy's. All the proof I need for me.

No there is no sponsorship or shoot for loot in handgun silhouette, strictly an amateur sport. All door prizes awarded at matches are given randomly and never based on scores, at time even guns. Anyone caught doing either would be banned from the sport.

Use the link provided in an earlier post and look at the results for International class revolver and the revolver make is listed for each competitor. Nope, not a Smith & Wesson listed. Couple of Ruger's. Many of the shooters use jacketed, a fair number like me use cast exclusively. The best wins for me were when I beat the best bullet money could buy including perfect 60x60 for a state championships. Learn how to load for a revolver and you'll do every bit as well with cast as you could do with jacketed. I've posted all of my handloading methods and numerous shooting tips here repeatedly for 10 years including in this thread. Most all of my casting and alloy info is on my web site - lasc.us. No secrets.

So doubt all you want, doesn't hurt my feelings and again, it doesn't matter and it doesn't change anything.

Rick

Rick

I think we have watched each others posts long enough that you know I am the doubting type. Your production revolvers, that you used in competition, how many did you trade away or just put aside because they just did not cut it? What make an model did you use to win the trophies? I think I am pretty good at casting bullets but I have never had cast bullets that would out shoot match grade jacketed bullets, does anyone make match grade jacketed bullets for revolvers. The only metallic silhouette completion I ever shot way small bore hunters pistol. It was a lot of fun and it did not take 1 MOA to shoot a perfect score, targets are much bigger than that. I never did shoot a perfect score but I only shot a few matches before I move to someplace where there were no matches locally. Judging from the website info someone posted the big bore target are quite large as well. The 2014 results linked did not have anyone shooting a revolver getting a perfect score no less getting into a shoot off but I might have missed something as the link gave me trouble viewing anything but the top scores.

Tim

[cbrick]

Scores at that match were down, I wasn't there but it could have been a windy match. That will sure ruin your day in revolver but even the unlimited category scores were pretty low.

I used a FA in 357 mag. When FA first came out they only made it in 454 and I used that for a time though not with 454 loads. Only ever had to get rid of one cause I couldn't make it shoot, a DW in 41 mag. DW ruled the roost for many years until FA came along. Only time ya ever see a Smith at these matches is when a newbie shows up and that's what he has. A lot of the Smith's were accurate enough but wouldn't hold up to the amount of shooting and heavy loads needed to compete. Here's where 44man gets set off, we will be hearing from him shortly but maybe 2 out 10 Ruger's were accurate enough. If ya got a good one keep it. That's not to bash Ruger, I have several but I didn't compete with them, I do hunt with them.

Hunters pistol and smallbore hunters pistol are NRA standing (offhand) classes and use different targets out to 100 yards. There is both open sight and scoped categories.

Rick

[DrCaveman]

As this thread is working its way back around to civil discourse, it is making me feel better about my own prospects for eventual handgun expertise.

I really like all the direct tips given toward revolver control. Ive been working hard on handgun proficiency, it is just taking longer than i expected

I mention in another thread how the 1911 shoots tops for me, right now. At times in the recent past, the smith 19 has shot tops. Also has the gp100 at times. I realize that i am prone to contradicting myself, and not always properly indicating that a position held may be based on scant evidence

44mag#1 has nailed it- realistic expectations. We are not all michael jordan or warren buffet. Some of us are NOT top tier, whether the guns are or not. But...

We can get pretty damn good, if we put our minds and hearts to it. The path to the good loads has been laid out on this site many times, for pretty much every load out there

The guns are generally better than we are

Shoot out a 3" bullseye with 18 shots at 25 yds and be proud

Then next week do it with 12

Those are my type of goals

[cbrick]

We can get pretty damn good, if we put our minds and hearts to it. The path to the good loads has been laid out on this site many times, for pretty much every load out there

The guns are generally better than we are

The biggest mistake I think most people make is convincing themselves before hand that they can't do it or the gun can't do it or both. With that attitude they never will succeed be it revolver shooting or anything else they attempt.

Takes a lot of time, work & desire. I was shooting in revolver class for several years before the guys that could do it even knew I was there. I kept at it, switched to shooting every category with the revolver to get more time with it. Shooting half size with revolver will show you in a hurry what grip is all about. After time I was giving the good revolver shooters a run for it, even beating them every now and then.

Rick

[44MAG#1]

Sure, some limit themselves by their own limitation of their mind.
BUT, it is also wrong to try to push the belief that it can be done by everyone.
It is like a mediocre singer going to a notable voice teacher and expecting to become another singing great. The teacher knowing that the,person will, more than likely, never be more than average. Then the teacher hype up the student to believe that they can be great. That is unrealistic plus cruel.
Now to shooting, I've seen people that will never get it no matter what, except by a small miracle. Their mindset isn't where it should be and will never be.
The guns fault? No way, the persons fault. But the gun and the person and the ammo is the unit.
So again just because something is a reality to some doesn't make it realistic for many.
That is the reason we aren't all billionaires or all Bob Mundens or Jerry Michuleks or Howard Hill's
Some in reality doesn't have what it takes and that is a realistic reality of life.
So why try to push something that isn't realistic when deep down you know that it is unrealistic even though it is a reality simply because it can and has been done?
Just like telling a 150 pound guy he will eventually be able to bench 500 pounds just by eating healthy and lifting often with the desire to be a monster and won't be able to by his clothes off the rack because of bulging muscles.