20 ton hydraulic press?????

[Gussy]

I have an electric/hydraulic swage press for crimping hose end fittings. It has a fairly short stroke and should make a great bullet swage press. I put a foot switch control on it. One of these days (retirement is just around the corner) I'll have time to make dies!! A few other projects are ahead of it, but, the list is getting shorter!

[Linstrum]

KTN, do you use your 0.180 wire for making .177 cal air rifle ammo?

Years ago I thought about doing that for my old 1932 Benjamin air pistol.

[KTN]

I use the wire as cores to .22RF jacketed bullets.
Now that I got started in bullet swaging,I'm thinking about trying to make my own swaging dies for .45 cal paper patched boolit.


Kaj

[georgeld]

Kaj:
Those pics. Ok, is that center rod sticking out the top your lead wire??

Those 1"x3-4"??? stubs on each side of the ram. Are those what you're
pushing thru to make the wire??

IF so, hell yeah, I can make those up. Where did you come by your extrusion die?? How long is the taper leading to the hole?

What I have are 1lb ingots, but, do have a couple of ton of them. maybe 1000# is
soft stuff and I can get more soft lead easy enough. Know a guy that has tons of plumbing scrap.

NM:
Ok, thanks for the info. Yep, close to 600 miles from here. Been that rt many a time. But, not for yrs.

[KTN]

georgeld,
sorry it took so long to answer,been on the road whole week.Here's a better picture of my extruder.
Yes,those 0.75"x3" cylinders are what I extrude to wire.Extrusion die is home made and taper is regular drill bit nose taper,same as on that lead cylinder.


Kaj

[Buckshot]

..............georgeld, it's no big deal to extrude lead.



These lead extrusions were done in a RCE Walnut Hill press when bleeding cores. Let me hastily add that this was early on in my swaging career, and bleeding off this much lead in merely bringing cores to weight is too much extruding. However as an example for what may be done by hand operated press, let alone a multi-ton hydraulic press should give you an idea of the simplicity.

...............Buckshot

[georgeld]

Looks great. I'd like to see closer detailed pictures of the dies.

maybe a drawing, some size's would help too.
Might be I'm figuring to go much heavier than is needed. But, I have that habit. But, seldom anything I build breaks. When it does, there's always a reason for it. but, nearly never because I didn't build it strong enough, or put enough weld on. Dad always said: "you use too many nails".

Buck, I'd like to see the face of your setup, up close. Ok? IF it's too big a deal, you could send by e'mail. That way I could print it out too. Have several notebooks of these kind of things.

Retirement close, and list getting shorter?? Don't fool yourself man!! It'll never happen!
You've got more free time and money now than you'll have once you retire.
Two things that are NOT in the cards: "getting caught up, or getting ahead".

Count on it. Wish you the best though. Thanks for the great info and pics from everyone.
Those short wires would pose no problem in home production.

[Buckshot]

...........georgeld, this is a picture of the core bleed die. You can see the bleed hole just a bit more then half way up, left of center. The plunger is on the right. Best I can measure the clearance is .0003" or maybe a bit less. If you cover the ejector hole in the bottom and the bleed hole with your fingers, the plunger will slowly fall due to it's own weight. If you put some light oil on the plunger it will pretty much just sit there.

1) The larger the extruder hole, the easier it is to extrude.
2) The more pressure you use, the closer your fit has to be
3) Surprizingly little pressure is required (comparatively).

Many years back I built a very simple swage die to reform 58 cal Minie' bullets, into a kind of SWC shape below:



The 3 die parts is the nose forming stem, on the left behind the Minie' bullets. The body in the middle and the base forming plunger lying on the right. It was made out of common low carbon cold finished 1018 steel. This is case hardenable but not through hardenable, but didn't receive any treatment at all.

It was first used with a hammer. The body sits over the base (nose forming stem) and you drop a doner Minie' into the die. Insert the base forming plunger and bang on it until it comes up solid. Worked like a champ, but pretty cave man stuff. I built a bench hydraulic press which had a 6 ton bottle jack for pursuasion.

While I wasn't extruding lead it proves a fact. The 6 ton jack would supply sufficient force and with little feeling in it's operation that you could easily extrude lead back up past the base forming plunger. This in effect tied the unit up until the lead could be melted and the plunger removed. Had I been extruding lead wire and the hole had been of sufficient size it probably would have been fine.

However, what I did was to substitute a 2 ton bottle jack. This was enough to fully form the lead Minie' and it became inoperable (by hand) at that point. Best yet, it did not extrude lead back past the plunger.

.................Buckshot

[Southern Son]

Buckshot,
I have been a member of the Cast Boolit forum for only a short time, I have however been reading posts on this forum for quite some time. I have come to 3 conclusions.
1. I have to buy a lathe (seriously, I am going nuts looking at all the stuff you can make on one and being a BPCR shooter, the things made on that lathe would be so useful),
2. You are a genius,
3. Someone needs to gather all your posts on this forum and make it into a Web Book (more a Web Training Manual for making stuff handy for shooting). Down Under there are very few people who do any swaging, I have only met a couple and one of those is a full time gunsmith. Because there are so few people doing it, information is thin on the ground. Most of the information on the Web seems to be aimed at those who have a little bit of a grounding in swaging. Your postings are plain, accurate and straight to the point, explaining what needs to be done and how to do it in simple terms that people like me can understand. As I said earlier, I have been reading this forum for some time and everything I know about swaging (so little that it is) I have learned from this forum and many of it's members (Mighty Thor, KTN and some others I can't think of right now), but most of what I have learned I have learned from your postings. I know I am not the first person to say this to you, and I also know that I am not the first person to suggest your postings be gathered into one place in some type of book. I am not trying to kiss ar$e, but I am trying to let you know (and the other posters like Mighty Thor and KTN), that the extra effort you put in to your postings with photographs and clear explanations is very much appriciated by gumbys like me. Please keep them comming, someday I will get a lathe (have to get a shed first), and then what I have learned from you guys will be even more appriciated.

[floodgate]

Southern Son:

I couldn't agree more, and have suggested the same. Buckshot's opus would go on the shelf right next to my cherished volumes of Guy Lautard's "Machinst's Bedside Reader". How 'bout it, Rick?

[Nueces]

I agree with both the above. Rick, it's pretty rare to be talented in the shop and with words (and photos). I'd sure like a compendium.

Mark

[georgeld]

Buck:
Great pics and explanations. I agree with the last comments fully.
Do appreciate the postings. Esp with pics now.

I have several feet of 1 1/2" bore drill stem. Been thinking it'd make one hell of a cannon barrel. But, now that I see these things. Just might polish out a couple feet of it and use the long ram of my cherry picker with a perfect fitting rammer on top. Could swage out a mile of wire with one stroke. haha! nah, doubt it. But, sure would be feasible, right?

Another question. I see you've made many shorts, IF several loose pieces of lead were stuffed in the die. Would they join into one wire as it fed out?

Bleeding past the ram would lock things up sure would, but, getting a nice tight fit would eliminate that problem. OR should it seems. So would a return spring on the ram. Wouldn't be much trick to hook up a flat bar with a hole that fits the ram screw on the jack. Long enough on each end to hook a coil spring between it and the jacks base. Then the return would just need to open the bleeder screw on the jack.

Had personal problems today, Dad's car was stolen. So didn't get over to pick up the steel. Plus it snowed again last night too. Am getting cabin fever bad.

I have about completed a shooting seat/table affair for p'doggin. A little cleaning up and painting and should be ready to try. Wish I could take pics. but, that "date" I brought over in Dec stole my camera.

Everyone needs a lathe and mill, welder, nice big shop, extra money, and couple honeys on the side too. Right?
Junker harbor/freight combo I have is better than nothing. But, I'd sure not recommend any of you guys go buy one. I ran a lathe in the shop way back in the mid 60's and got pretty hot stuff with it until ulcers developed from the tight tolerance's all the time. THen the plant shut down. Never could find another machinist job. Ended up driving a trk and then welding. Lack of income and wife's cooperation is a lot of why I've never gotten machinery. Am gaining on it now that's she's gone. Am hoping to get a decent 10x40" lathe one of these days. Could IF I'd stop blowing it all on more guns. Priority problems!!


KTN: post #25 shows a rolled spool of wire, but, your slugs are short.
Do they press/join together to make a continous wire? OR is there a break each slug?
Thanks much, all of you.

[Buckshot]

...............Well I certainly do thank you all for the nice words. I'm humbled. It seems that a lot of people who are machinists (in the true definition of the word) are gun people, in the fullest definition of that . And also gun people can have a tendancy to be interested in machinery, let alone machining. After all a firearm is a piece of precision machinery, and holds a bit of fascination that way. It is after all, a heat engine.

I believe that anyone who enjoys working with their hands should get a lathe. However, it must be remembered that buying a lathe is like buying a horse. All the REAL expense comes afterwords, and it IS possible to buy precision. So look out because precision isn't cheap! It can also become an illness (but everyone here knows of which I speak)

As an example I had the money saved up to buy a 9x42 vertical mill. But I did not have the floorspace due to other flotsam and jetsam occupying the square foottage. Yet that did not stop me from buying $2400 worth of milling machine accesories. That was almost a year ago and I still don't have the mill.

.............georgeld, "Another question. I see you've made many shorts, IF several loose pieces of lead were stuffed in the die. Would they join into one wire as it fed out?"

Yes they would if they were clean and largely unoxidized. Otherwise oil, dirt and surface oxides would inhibit it.

..................Buckshot

[toecutter]

I have some experience with this... We use a 40 ton cold header press at work to smash lead into bullets. We make a wide variety of them, in my experience while 20 tons is more than enough, the slow cycle of the hydraulic press will get boring really quick unless you are doing really big bullets that just arn't practical to do any other way. I think the lead-wire extrusion stuff a number of people were talking about is probably a better use for your spare log splitter.

[Southern Son]

KTN,
Mate, in your above post you have your photo of your lead extruding rig. You say the taper on the inside of the die is just regular drill bit nose taper, the head of the plunger looks flat, is it? Also, I am guessing that you made the chamber the lead is extruded out of simply by drilling out the die with about a .750 inch drill bit and then polishing. Is that correct?

I think that you said somewhere that you use the wire for swaging into jackets to make bullets (if you didn't I'm sorry, I have it mixed up). If so, what size do you recommend swaging the lead wire to in relation to the bullet? I am just wondering because I am wanting to swage bullets (eventually) to paper patch in my 45/70. Because I am using black powder, I have been thinking that the bullet should be around the .440-.441 mark to patch up to .448-.449. If I do make the bullet at say.440, would it make any sense to swage the lead wire to .430-.435 to minimize the sizing? I am thinking that it would require less force to swage out a thick piece of wire to begin with, and then only having to swage up .010 may also make it quicker/easier. Am I right, or am I truly a lost cause?

Ron.

P.S. Georgeld, SNOWED THERE LAST NIGHT. I have been driving for the last 2 days and my right arm and the right side of my face is really badly sunburnt. I would swap snow for this blistering heat we have had here for the last week, in a heart beat.

[KTN]

georgeld,
yes,slugs join in to continous wire when extrudet,even when lubed.

southern son,
you guessed right.Extruding die is made by drilling 0.18" hole thru and opening up with 0.750" drill bit and polishing to tight fit with base plunger (VW Golf shock absorber rod,hardened and chrome plated.)
Wire diameter is such that cores drop into jackets freely,even after corecutter flattens the end a bit.
With my short experience on bullet swaging,I don't think wire or core diameter is important,as long as it fits in to jacket or swaging die without problems (both diameter and lenght).
With bigger boolits it could be easier to make core mold to cast cores,like Buckshot did.


Kaj

[georgeld]

KLN/Buck:

Haven't looked yet, but, in the tool n die dept in the 60's, they used a good many drill bushings. Most were pressed in, but, some were threaded in.

Been thinking, with a set of bushings the same threaded OD, and proper sized bores.
Then all that would have to be changed is the bushing/s.

Last one I bought was for a 9" dia lead pot modeled on the Lee Pro Pot. Pics of it are on the CB/melting tools somewhere, about a yr ago maybe. "George's melter" I think it's titled.

Anyway, I made a 3/4"x8" stainless pin that wouldn't seal a hole in the bottom. So bought the bushing and that solved the problem for about $14!! Then not long after, I loaned the equipt to a buddy and gave him 15 buckets to melt. It came back without the bushing!!
Next one, I welded in place, still haven't used the pot again since. Whether it seals right this time or not, I don't know yet. That's gotta be checked thsi summer, as I still have about 15 buckets of range scrap. Two buckets per hour working alone produces about 105-25lbs per bucket. Larry melted 1200 ingots and 7 gallons of jackets in 8 hours busting ass alone. 20 yrs younger than me, and without back problems too. Makes a difference.

Good to know those slugs will join together. Expect that works better if you don't bottom out the ram, right? OR is the bottom tapered with a flat ram?

Didn't get over after the steel again today.
What OD is the socket die on that extruder?

Have you guys tried extruding harder lead yet? Will/does it work with these big powered jacks? OR is it too much pressure?

I've got maybe three ton of range lead in ingots already for casting. Since seeing these. Believe I'll bore out some slug type molds and pour those the right shape and size once I get started on it.

S/Son: BTDT that too. Drove the long haul over ten yrs. SO I know about brown arm and one side of the face, light colored on the other side. I also learned a few yrs later what can become of such 'tanning". Had a bunch of skin cancer's cut, and frozen off the left side of my face the last 20yrs. Be good advice to keep your hide covered with "lube", maybe you could prevent some of what I've gone thru.
Wish you well,

[Jim_Fleming]

My questions are about removing the plunger from the die body after extrusion has been completed.

They're simple:

How is it done, and how did y'all attach the plunger to the removal mechanism?

I hope y'all don't mind me jumping onto this thread even after it's a bit dated? Daggone it I'm excited to see this info!

Jim

[deltaenterprizes]

I just unscrew the threaded bushing that holds the orifice and push it thru!

[Linstrum]

I can see with a hydraulic bottle jack that it would be a problem unless you can do like deltaenterprizes says and unscrew the nozzle and push it on through.

When i had my press I just hit the reverse flow valve for the double-acting cylinder and it pulled the extrusion ram back out no problem.