LEE 452-230-TC in a 1911?

[fredj338]

I shoot a 200gr version in 5 diff 1911s & 2 XD & a M625. You should be fine.

[texaswoodworker]

Thanks everyone for the help and suggestions. I think I'm going to go ahead and get it.

[newton]

If you haven't completely decided yet....here is another happy customer. I have a very short throated 1911, next to non existent, and I have got it to work for me. Wound up with a 1.190" OAL(even though 1.170" and 1.180" both worked ok). lyman #4 lists loads for the TL version, which is the same length boolit as the regular version.

Just got done casting a few up tonight. One word of caution, some of us have had molds that like to throw them out of round. Keep an eye on that.

[Tom W.]

Which Lee mold are you talking about?
The Lee 230 2R; the tumble lube groove design
or
The Lee 228 1R; the traditional lube groove design

Since you are saying you had to seat short I thinking you were working with the 1R ogive design. This design is not a traditional "ball" type round nose profile where as the 2R ogive is more so.

Yup, you are right... I no longer have the mold, I just didn't like the small lube grooves, nor the fact that I had to seat so short.

[DougGuy]

Well, you guys that have to seat short gotta realize that the load data and COA given is safe and recommended by the powder makers and they use SAAMI specs for chamber dimensions AND ammo dimensions, and the pressures and velocities listed in the load data are for that specific load, at THAT specific COA.

Manufacturers don't throat barrels for cast boolit shoooters. They throat them (sometimes) for factory, jacketed .451" ammo.

If the load won't chamber because of A.) A throat that is short or non-existant, or B.) A throat that is tight, meaning .451" or .4515" in diameter, and the boolit won't go into the throat, it is a minor, one time deal to send the barrel and have it throated. Throating is probably the CHEAPEST fix in the world of 1911s. and it does the MOST good for the $$ spent. Twenty bucks plus shipping!

I know I know, seat shorter, yada yada, this is a common fix, but NOT the right fix. The chamber is a guide. It holds the case while the boolit is fired. The throat is a guide, it is a tool, that holds the boolit straight and aligned with the bore while it is being fired. It is NOTHING to "adjust" the diameter, OR the length of the throat to fit whatever COA you want to load to!

Fact is, there will be an "optimum" COA for every 1911 made and every boolit style made. There will be one seating depth that it will like better than shorter or longer, and it will feed the best with this COA for a certain boolit. Take the SAME gun and barrel, change boolit styles, the COA may change from boolit style to boolit style, but each one will have an "optimum" length in the same 1911.

The barrel throat, should NOT be the factor dictating COA! If the throat is causing you to have to seat shorter to accommdate it, THIS is what needs to be addressed, not seating depth. Plain and simple.

All seating shorter does, is raise pressures unless charges are lessened accordingly, and create feeding problems because of the round being short. In short (pun intended) all this does is create a second problem, as a workaround to the first problem, which is a short or tight barrel throat, and this is NOT the correct way to remedy the problem!

[newton]

Just to push you over the edge in your descision...


Always helps to have published data on a boolit. That is the one thing I don't like about lee. They are not a big player, sort of speak, in the market to get much data published on their molds. Lyman must have considered this mold worthy of use to include it I would think. Just shows the popularity of it. The tumble lube and the regular lube are the same boolit. A quick call to Lee can cure any doubts for you. But this is a blessing to me because I've worked up several loads for several "unpublished" rounds, always having that little bit of fear that I might not be right.

[Centaur 1]

Use the OAL that's listed in the Lyman manual that Newton scanned and posted. When loaded to 1.170", the flat nose profile lines up with the nose profile of ball ammo. I have the mold with standard lube grooves and it feeds great in every gun that me and my friends have. I tumble lube using straight Johnson paste wax then size to .452". I haven't killed anything yet, but I carry my 1911 while hunting just in case I need it. I also figured that the flat nose would hit harder than a round nose. I have the six cavity mold and it uses up lead quickly. I preheat my ingots on a hotplate so they melt quicker when placed into the pot.

[hickfu]

Newton, is that from the 3rd or 4th edition of the Lyman book?

[Centaur 1]

I don't have the third edition, but it is in the fourth.

[rsrocket1]

My very first cast boolits were from the 6 cavity TL452-230-TC. That mold empties the 4-20 pot in a hurry. My mold drops all 6 boolits without even a shake of the handle. Just open the mold and the heavy (240g) boolits drop out.

My old Thompson Auto Ordnance likes military hardball round nose bullets and chokes on SWC's unless they are seated to the perfect length and then it can still be finicky with different magazines. With the TL-452-TC boolits, the old gun eats 'em all perfectly.

This was my very first batch and first target shot with them.

[newton]

That is from the 4th edition, as Centaur said.

Personally, while the boolits did work at 1.170" as Lyman says, I did not leave them there for long. I was being constantly scrutinized for the short OAL that I felt like I might actually be doing something wrong. lol. So I did manage to get mine to seat longer, but that could be from other things I did. Regardless, I would go as long as possible to tell you the truth. And, seeing how pressure increases going deeper, it would only serve to say it decreases going longer. So you would be safe with loads listed. Also, the main reason I wanted to go longer was because of where the mouth hits the boolit. At 1.170" the case mouth was right at the shoulder. You could see that it was receiving some abuse from the loading process if it managed to catch something. With the longer OAL, the boolit shoulder sits a little out and receives the bumps, given you do a decent taper crimp to the round.

rsrocket, whats your OAL on those? Looks like 1.170"-1.180"? I think the wider nose is what helps them feed so well for having such a short OAL compared to ball ammo. Its got to be something, because people really like to use this boolit from what I can tell, and OAL's shorter than 1.200" are the norm for this round from all the searching I have done on the web.

[rsrocket1]

That is from the 4th edition, as Centaur said.

Personally, while the boolits did work at 1.170" as Lyman says, I did not leave them there for long. I was being constantly scrutinized for the short OAL that I felt like I might actually be doing something wrong. lol. So I did manage to get mine to seat longer, but that could be from other things I did. Regardless, I would go as long as possible to tell you the truth. And, seeing how pressure increases going deeper, it would only serve to say it decreases going longer. So you would be safe with loads listed. Also, the main reason I wanted to go longer was because of where the mouth hits the boolit. At 1.170" the case mouth was right at the shoulder. You could see that it was receiving some abuse from the loading process if it managed to catch something. With the longer OAL, the boolit shoulder sits a little out and receives the bumps, given you do a decent taper crimp to the round.

rsrocket, whats your OAL on those? Looks like 1.170"-1.180"? I think the wider nose is what helps them feed so well for having such a short OAL compared to ball ammo. Its got to be something, because people really like to use this boolit from what I can tell, and OAL's shorter than 1.200" are the norm for this round from all the searching I have done on the web.

Good eye there newton!
1.17" is right where I seat them. I could seat them longer, but then the bulge from the top band starts to come into play and I wanted as little transition from the bullet to the case rim as possible (just like on a round nose fmj bullet and the opposite of that step on a SWC which was causing 3 point jams on my 1911). I load anywhere from 3 grains Red Dot (600fps and very mild) to 5g Bullseye (900fps and a little hot) but my standard load is 5.0g Unique for a very comfortable 730 fps. It feels like you are shooting a real 1911 while not beating up your hands.

[Cherokee]

I've used the TC design since it came out years ago. When I bought the Lee mold (not TL) version, it continued the good performance I had been getting from the NEI mold but was 6 cavities. It works at 1.180" OAL in all my 1911's but will give me a smokestack in my XDM once in a while, can't figure out why. Ayway, highly recommend you try the mold. And it will cast heavy with wheel weight alloy.


Artful - I noticed a Para and Star PD (or is that a Detonics ?) in the pic. Got those too, great guns and they feed the Lee TC fine.

[kens]

I use that Lee 230-TC bevel base, regular lube groove, 6 banger mold.
I love it.
It feeds fine thru 3 1911's.
I do use a collet crimp die for all my semi-auto loading, they feed much better with taper crimp.
Also, a little deeper seating helps feeding of 1911's, and Hi-powers too.
If yours wont feed, get a taper crimp, and seat a bit deeper.

[hickfu]

Thanks Newton and Centaur, I ordered the Lyman 4th today, it will be here on Thursday...

[newton]

Good eye there newton!
1.17" is right where I seat them. I could seat them longer, but then the bulge from the top band starts to come into play and I wanted as little transition from the bullet to the case rim as possible (just like on a round nose fmj bullet and the opposite of that step on a SWC which was causing 3 point jams on my 1911). I load anywhere from 3 grains Red Dot (600fps and very mild) to 5g Bullseye (900fps and a little hot) but my standard load is 5.0g Unique for a very comfortable 730 fps. It feels like you are shooting a real 1911 while not beating up your hands.

I tried many different OAL to the point I could almost see the difference. But it was just a guess. lol

I am going to be trying some 5 grains of Unique tonight. I have been using 5.5 grains, but my POI is 3" low. Someone mentioned that I might be sending the boolit out faster than the natural barrel rise, therefor the low hit. I am hoping that 5 will reliably cycle and hit closer to POA. I have not ran any factory rounds through it, does the 5 grains feel like ball ammo?

[newton]

I've used the TC design since it came out years ago. When I bought the Lee mold (not TL) version, it continued the good performance I had been getting from the NEI mold but was 6 cavities. It works at 1.180" OAL in all my 1911's but will give me a smokestack in my XDM once in a while, can't figure out why. Ayway, highly recommend you try the mold. And it will cast heavy with wheel weight alloy.


Artful - I noticed a Para and Star PD (or is that a Detonics ?) in the pic. Got those too, great guns and they feed the Lee TC fine.

I've been reading a lot on the 1911 lately, just trying to get my self familiar with the gun. Smokestacks are almost always associated with extractor tension. I'd start there.

Mine is a Para, good to know that yet another person is having good luck with this boolit in their gun. Did you have to ream/throat your Para?

[newton]

Thanks Newton and Centaur, I ordered the Lyman 4th today, it will be here on Thursday...

You'll like it. Lots of good info. I wish someone would make a book for Lee's molds. I think in the end, it would make a killing. I would have to say as time goes on, a lot of people tend to buy Lee molds just because of their low cost. Most of those people are new casters. And the one thing that new casters need is load data.

[Linstrum]

I use the Lee 452 230 TC in my Citadel version of the 1911A1 and have no problem hitting a 9" paper plate at 100 yards by walking my shots to the target. Both the 1911A1 pistol and the Lee 452 230 TC projectile are winners.

rl 1,233

[CJR]

A little historical knowledge on the TC bullet design. In the late 70s, the Air Force (AF) started a program to improve the accuracy of the 9mm RN bullet with a concave base. The AF was assisted in this effort by General Electric(GE), Hornady, and S&W. The equations for accurate small arms bullets were developed by the AF & GE and were also used to improve the 20mm ammo for fighter aircraft.

The inaccurate 9mm bullet design suffered from minimal or no separation between the Center of Pressure (CP) and the Center of Gravity (CG). Blunting the nose moved the CP forward and removing the concave base moved the CG rearward, This increased the CP/CG separation distance, to increase gyroscopic damping, and significantly tightened groups. The first test bullets were simply nose-flattened RN bullets, done by S&W, and used to test the AF/GE equations. Hornady was then contracted to produce the final TC designs for final testing. The AF shot many rounds to verify the very small groups/dispersions of this design and then later patented this technology. The AF also went on to configure this technology for the 45ACP. Hornady then started producing the 45ACP TC and other calibers for commercial sales, and CB clones followed.

Some 1911s may require minor tweaking to feed this design, but the benefits are well worth the effort. And now you know the whole story. If you would like to know the names of the participants of this effort, let me know as this development is well documented.

Best regards,

CJR