38 Super...what's the skinny?

[KYCaster]

Let me address a couple of points that may not be clear from the previous posts.

Your Colt LW Commander and dave 45-90's STI 38 Super Comp have about as much in common as my S&W 686 and a Victory model 38 S&W Long. The only thing they have in common is they will accept cartridges with the same dimensions.

Brass..........

So far no one has mentioned the 38ACP (not to be confused with 380ACP). It's the cartridge that morphed into the 38 Super. Dimensionally identical, 38ACP brass should not be used for loads using data recommended for 38 Super.

9mm Largo and 9X23 are one and the same; two names for the same cartridge. There has been lots of 9mm Largo ammo imported through the years so there's brass still available. When USPSA banned major power factor loads using 9X19 brass, Winchester introduced the 9X23 Winchester to compete with the 38 Super which was the preferred hot rod cartridge at the time. Their first effort wasn't strong enough and many failures resulted. After a couple of redesigns they got it right. 9mm Largo and original 9X23 Win brass should not be loaded to current major power factor levels.

The exception to all this is......Star Line brass can be used with any reliable data up to +P+ levels.

Barrel dimensions...................

The original 38ACP was neither a 38(.357) nor a 9mm(.355). It split the difference with a .356 groove dia. That probably contributed as much to its reputation for poor accuracy as the semi-rim. When USPSA Open Division took off and buyers were asking for the latest cartridge-of-the-month, the specialty gunsmiths started ordering 9mm barrels and chambered them for whatever their favorite happened to be. So now we pretty much have settled on a standard .355 groove dia. for everything that can possibly use that bore size. BUT....Colt was the last manufacturer to jump on that band wagon, so your barrel dimension depends on the manufacture date. (could be as late as 2002 IIRC)

Pressure..............

Go back and read the posts by MtGun44. What Bill describes is the development of the 38 Super used for USPSA Major Power Factor. At the time there was no "Open Division". Just as Col. Cooper envisioned, competition was being used to advance the art of pistol craft. Major power factor was based on 45ACP GI ball ammo (actually slightly less) at 180,000......bullet weight in grains multiplied by velocity. When Jim Clark introduced the "Pin Gun" the race was on! His original was essentially a muzzle weight to help dampen recoil and allow an extended sight radius.

Enter the 38 Super! Now we have eleven rounds a in the magazine instead of eight. But major PF is right at the top end of the available load data. OK, not really a serious problem....until somebody discovered that Clark's pin gun worked a bit better when the powder weight was a significant percentage of the bullet weight. So now we start looking at compensators to dampen recoil, lighter bullets and different powders to make the comp work better. Add electronic sights and we can really see how well our comps are working.

Bill says his 158 gr. bullet and HS7 load was 35,000 PSI, based on the Hodgden data. Definitely +P level pressure. Reduce the bullet weight to 135 and increase the powder charge to stay above the 180 PF requirement and what do you get?.......Nobody knew for sure..........but they did it anyway.

So Wilson and Nowlin started making "ramped" barrels. The feed ramp was part of the barrel instead of part of the frame. The result was a "fully supported chamber" which would help contain the pressure. Other manufacturers started making +P+ brass, another step in the right direction.

Somebody finally decided it might be a good idea to actually pressure test some of the popular 38 Super loads. The results were a bit sobering. Some of the loads generated 65,000+ PSI!!!

So, that's kind of a long winded way of saying.....Be VERY CAREFUL when choosing load data for your Colt. Most sources now separate their 38 Super data into standard loads and +P loads. Stick with standard loads from reliable sources in good quality brass and your Commander should last a long time.

Jerry

[JHeath]

I don't own a 1911 but I do like 9x23. I shoot a CZ 52 with a 9mm barrel that I chambered for 9 x 23. It is a handful with hot loads.

Tim

From what I read, the CZ52 is not the platform for hot loads and high pressures. The roller lockup is good, but required a cutout that creates a thin spot on the barrel. And reportedly the metallurgy is inconsistent. I wouldn't hotrod one. When first imported, conventional wisdom was that the 52 was quite strong. Clark M then discovered that the failure mode when pushed was a split barrel and slide -- not a blown case down the mag well as with most pistols. Accurate Arms dialed back their 7.62x25 data as a result. Be careful.

[dave 45-90]

Excellent Job KYCaster. I will add the use small rifle primers does a better job of holding the works together

[wv109323]

If you are looking to launch a 130 gn. 9MM at 12 to 1300 fps then your options are the .38 Super and the .357 Sig. If you want to build a .38 super then I would use a ramped barrel. An aluminum frame should last a long,long time if you have the right spring. The thing with these calibers is brass. You will end up buying new brass and I hate to loose expensive brass. With 9mm brass is everywhere. Unless there is some specific use for this caliber then I would stick with a common caliber. I have 2 .38 supers a commander and a GM. They mostly stay in the safe and I shoot a .45 ACP. So what if I loose some brass, I can usually pick up more than I loose.

[xacex]

I built a 38 super for my wife several years ago from a slide and barrel I picked up not knowing what I had. Turns out it was a colt super comp with the bone ash blueing in pretty good shape still for its age. Took me a year to get it done in my off time, but I also had to add material to the feet, and re time the gun once complete. In the mean time I added a 9mm barrel for it. The gun is a shooter, and I like shooting Mihec 125 hollow points in 38 super as well as 9mm through it. My wife who is partial to 45 ACP likes it, and told me I was not on the trade list so it looks like I did ok on it. My only complaint is the brass, and having to readjust the sights between 9mm and 38 super. I picked up a bunch of starline and some import 38 super brass (about 800), but have only used about 100 pieces. The 9mm barrel stays in it most of the time just because there is always 1k or more around this place loaded.

I had a 357 Sig before a 38 super, and yes they are about the same. However, I find the 38 super more accurate, and the ability to use a heavier bullet without worry of neck tension or set back is nice. I keep a 357 sig barrel around for the glock. I do like being able to pick up 40 S&W brass and converting it for less than magnum 357 sig loads for pump-and-dump brass. I hate the 40 S&W, but I have no problem picking up the brass and using it for something better. I tried the whole 223 brass thing for the 38 S and gave up on it. To much work if I need to pull out a reamer.

[dtknowles]

From what I read, the CZ52 is not the platform for hot loads and high pressures. The roller lockup is good, but required a cutout that creates a thin spot on the barrel. And reportedly the metallurgy is inconsistent. I wouldn't hotrod one. When first imported, conventional wisdom was that the 52 was quite strong. Clark M then discovered that the failure mode when pushed was a split barrel and slide -- not a blown case down the mag well as with most pistols. Accurate Arms dialed back their 7.62x25 data as a result. Be careful.

When I said hot load, I did not mean to imply a pressure greater than normal for 7.62 x 25. I was just indicating that with the CZ52 the magazine lets you use a long COAL so you have more room for powder. You can use a heavier bullets seated way out and with the greater case volume you can load slower powder. I am not sure if I saw the Clark M test results but I did see a CZ52 that failed the way you mentioned when subjected to a serious over charge. It was a blow up test comparison between CZ52 and Tokarev. I don't understand why Accurate Arms would need to dial back their data unless they published data that had pressures exceeding that of factory ammo. The only factory ammo I have chrono'd was some Chinese Mil Surp that pushed a 90 grain fmj at 1500 fps. Was the AA data hotter than that?

Tim

Tim

[JHeath]

When I said hot load, I did not mean to imply a pressure greater than normal for 7.62 x 25. I was just indicating that with the CZ52 the magazine lets you use a long COAL so you have more room for powder. You can use a heavier bullets seated way out and with the greater case volume you can load slower powder. I am not sure if I saw the Clark M test results but I did see a CZ52 that failed the way you mentioned when subjected to a serious over charge. It was a blow up test comparison between CZ52 and Tokarev. I don't understand why Accurate Arms would need to dial back their data unless they published data that had pressures exceeding that of factory ammo. The only factory ammo I have chrono'd was some Chinese Mil Surp that pushed a 90 grain fmj at 1500 fps. Was the AA data hotter than that?

Tim

Tim

At one time AA published a load for a 110gr j-word at 1688fps. Go here and scroll down to Clark's post: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249993

The relevance to this thread -- if there is any -- pertains to 9x23 Win cases. Clark rechambered (using drill bits!) Tok pistols to 9x23 Win. and couldn't get enough Power Pistol under a 158 to burst a case, even with heavily compressed loads.

[dtknowles]

At one time AA published a load for a 110gr j-word at 1688fps. Go here and scroll down to Clark's post: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249993

The relevance to this thread -- if there is any -- pertains to 9x23 Win cases. Clark rechambered (using drill bits!) Tok pistols to 9x23 Win. and couldn't get enough Power Pistol under a 158 to burst a case, even with heavily compressed loads.

I guess I could go look for myself. It would be interesting to see what he was using for a COAL. After I modified my CZ52 I bought two boxes of 9x23 Win and disassembled them. I measured the powder charge and then used the powder and bullets to work back up to a comfortable load in my gun. I did not get back to full power 9x23 Win levels only because I did not want to push limits but got the feeling that the gun would have handled them alright. I later bought Starline 9mm Largo brass since I was not pushing high pressures. I like the greater case volume of the Largo brass along with the greater overall length, that way I can get close to 9x23 Win velocities without pushing up the pressures.

Tim

[357Mag]

LL -

Howdy !


IMHO -
Some of the ( especially ) modern .38 Super loads hit the sweet spot for ft lbs deliverable to a humanoid target, from a controllable platform w/ decent round capacity. For a lot of people, a " Super " would be a better fit, than would use of a 4" ( or shorter ) barrelled .357Mag shooting 125JHPs ( example ).

The new-wave .40 S & W's have made significant inroads on the sale & use of most other defensive round/handgun choices.
The .40 S & W has pretty much surplanted the .38 Super, in that regard. None the less, the " Super " can make for a great choice !


With regards,
357Mag

[JHeath]

Reviving this in case the OP is still around. Stumbled on this:

[MtGun44]

Interesting. IME, Rem +P will last literally forever, and Win +P has a 50%
chance of blowing out the first try at the unsupported area - and the ones that
are not blown out have a .020-.030 bulge which is almost beyond belief. Yet,
in the images, they look essentially identical. Rem brass must be a LOT
harder than the Win. That 9x23 looks like the REAL thing!

Bill

[JHeath]

Found the source of that image. Credit where credit is due . . .

http://www.38super.net/Images/Sectio...es%20small.jpg

Now if it only included a shortened 5.56 mil brass "super 9" case . . .

[Hammerhead]

I've owned 5 1911s.
2 .45s
2 .38 Supers (Colt & Les Baer)
1 9mm
The Supers were the only ones that were 100% reliable, plus it's a great caliber to load for.

[crabo]

How about some boolits and load info? I've shot up all my reloads and need to develope a good boolit load.

[MtGun44]

My Super was used for competition, had to make major caliber, boolit wt x velocity = 180,000.
I used 147 gr truncated cone with a slight SWC shoulder over 7.1 gr of W571. This made about
1240 fps, so power factor was 182000, barely OK. Later moved to 158 gr same shape and same
powder, velocity was about 1215 or so, so power factor was almost 192000, good safety factor.
This load which was a max load in a Hodgdon mini-reloading book at that time. W571/HS7 is
gone, not sure if Long Shot can make it go. I ran many, many tens of thousands of these
through a Wilson LE Comp built on a Colt 1911, unsupported chamber. This was perfectly safe
with Rem +P, PMC or Midway brass not safe with Win +P brass. Very accurate and basically .357 Magnum
power. Same powder charge under a 124 Hornady JHP would make 1395 fps avg. Very potent
self defense load.

Current Hodgdon data shows std pressure (not +P) load of 7.1 HS6 under a 150 cast lead at 1175 fps.
HS7 was a step slower than HS6. I think you could make 1250 at +P pressures, but there isn't
published data. Max they show with 160 Lead with WSF is only 1050 or so, clearly powder is too
fast. Blue Dot is close to the right speed, was used in competition loads back in the day, but didn't
meter anywhere near as well as W571/HS7 which is a fine ball powder.

Bill

[Love Life]

Wow!! Thank you for the cross sectioned brass picture. That 9X23 brass looks to be quite stout. Right now I am still researching off the shelf the guns, and the possibility of having one built. Not a racegun, just a solid 1911 platform. Buying the off the shelf gun will probably be cheaper even though the donor I have was very low cost.

Hmmm...

[RJM52]

...Super...it was named appropriately...

I've been shooting them since 1980. Used to run 25-35K a year when I shot IPSC. Now I use it in IDPA shoots and it's also my daily carry round. At this point I have 5 Commanders, 5 Combat Commanders, one Colt GM, one Colt Gold Cup and a Kimber Stainless Target II. Then there are the revolvers...S&W 686-7 1 of 300 and S&W 66, 60-10 and 649 that have extra cylinders rechambered and machined for moon clips by TK Custom.

Lots of good information above from some very experienced people.

As to guns... Commanders (as in aluminum frame) are ideal carry guns. Older Commanders made before 1990 will need to have the barrel replaced as the original way Colt headspaced the round was on the tiny rim instead of the case mouth. This was THE reason the guns never were very accurate...

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=182030

If you want a lightweight gun the nicest out of the box Commander is the recent release from Colt of a TALO designed gun is just about perfect.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=460538304

This is mine...I replaced the slim grips, mainspring housing, trigger and rear sight with an adjustable from Dawson Precision. It also now has two barrel. The original is so tightly chambered it will not chamber reloads that are in the least out of spec. I was able to buy a second barrel that was as tightly chambered and had a smith run a 9x23 Winchester reamer into it. Now I can not only shoot Super and 9x23 but my Super reloads will shoot fine from the rechambered barrel. There is also a 9mm barrel waiting to be installed. Also replaced was the original firing pin stop with a square bottomed one to retard opening for the 9x23 ammo.



Eighteen rounds of 9x23 Winchester at 15 yards....this is the 124 Soft Point from Winchester at 1460 fps (chronoed from 5")





This my daily carry gun...1952 Commander with BarSto barrel, MMC sights and hard chrome by Accurate Plating. The gun was put together by Jody Joseph of JoJo's in Southington, Ct.





Series 80 Combat Commander (steel frame) with BoMar sights and BarSto barrel....bullet is my favorite cast...SEACO 383 140 grain TC. 6.0 grains of Unique at 1230 fps. The one out of the group as my fault not the guns...





1956 Commander...BarSto, BoMar and hard chrome frame built by Dave Walters, Dallas, Tx.





...and what I can't figure out is why this bullet feeds in every 9mm and .38 Super I have tried them it...

As to loads, what can you say about a round that will run 88-180 grain bullets with pinpoint accuracy across the board. Just pick a bullet your gun will feed and stick some powder behind it and it will probably shoot. If you look in the Hornady Manual it lists loads for both .355 and .358 bullets. One of the best powders is SR4756...and it is being discontinued this year. I use mostly Unique and it is accurate from mild to wild.


If you want the best out of the box shooter take a look at the Kimber Stainless Target II. Ramped barrel, BoMar sights and mine also runs 9x23 Winchester with just a spring change. Feeds everything. Put a .22 Conversion on board and an accessory 9mm barrel and you have a gun that will do anything any time any where...

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=53122

With .22 Conversion Unit on frame..



Some reading material:

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/C...mo%20Tests.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthr..._bullets_tests


Inexpensive barrels...I have a 7" in the Gold Cup and it shoots excellent...

http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/search.asp...8+super+barrel

5.5" at 50 yards...




http://www.coltautos.com/1911a1_Super38ci.htm

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Trail+...I.-a0285993666

http://www.tkcustom.com/content/machine.asp

http://www.vincelewis.net/38super.html

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=451791



Hope this enough info for you...

Bob

[JHeath]

Wow!! Thank you for the cross sectioned brass picture. That 9X23 brass looks to be quite stout. Right now I am still researching off the shelf the guns, and the possibility of having one built. Not a racegun, just a solid 1911 platform. Buying the off the shelf gun will probably be cheaper even though the donor I have was very low cost.

Hmmm...

Someplace I read a review of the Rock Island 1911 .38 Super, where it appeared RIA chambers them to clear 9x23 brass, which might require a tweak of the extractor but that's it. But from what the experts above say, .38 comp brass will be more than enough. In the old days the semi rim caused accuracy issues, and the ramp cutout caused bulged cases, and burst cases resulting in the medical condition "Super Face" among guys who loaded to make major.

[crabo]

Since we're showing pictures of our Supers, here's my baby.

[c1skout]

I've been shooting the Lee 125rnfp sized .357 over 8.5gn of Accurate #7 from my Rock Island. My notes show this load averages 1147fps and it's more accurate than I am. I bought the Lee 124rn to use in this gun but I can't find any loads for it that shoot well, from starting 9mm load range into magnum velocity it was consistently disappointing in my super. I haven't tried many heavy boolit loads, but the Saeco 929 didn't shoot as well out of my gun as the Lee 125, and the Lee 158swc was hitting the target sideways at slightly over starting loads so I didn't go any farther with those, but I may try again with some slower burning powder.

RJM52, I like the look of that Saeco 383!