Primers for 454 Casull

[Joni Lynn]

The original ammo/brass for the 454 used a large pistol primer. I think I still have some here somewhere. Freedom Arms changed to small rifle primer for some reason. I never had any issues with either in my guns.

[nighthunter]

Made it to the range yesterday. Was shooting WC-820 with Rem 7 1/2 primers. No problems what so ever. 27.5 gr is listed as max for AA #9. Being that primers were seated with the RCBS hand priming tool I think my problem is the primer seating in the press. I am not bad mouthing the press manufacturer I just think maybe I have to find if something needs adjusted. I looked up the specs on the priming arm and will check into it here shortly.

Nighthunter

[Whiterabbit]

31 is a full load for a 300 gr. 28 and 29 had failures, book starting loads.

Any person who experiences this, all they have to do is seat the boolit deeper and they will see ignition failures go away.

[BRobertson]

Seems your the only one with an issue with the design and or the designers of the cartridge. I've never experienced a single problem with the exception of trying to reduce H-110. Not a single primer problem of any kind and I think my 454 had plenty of both life and accuracy.

Rick

Amen to that!!
I don't have as much experience with the .454 as some, (I hunt exclusively with the .44) but after hundreds of rounds from my M83s, I have had no problems with the small rifle primers( Rem 7 1/2) and 296. I have quite a few friends that have extensive experience with the .454 and they all seem to feel as I do!!

Bob

[44man]

[QUOTE=cbrick;3027698]Seems your the only one with an issue with the design and or the designers of the cartridge. I've never experienced a single problem with the exception of trying to reduce H-110. Not a single primer problem of any kind and I think my 454 had plenty of both life and accuracy.
You said it right, reduced loads, means starting book loads too. Just use enough powder. Our problem was starting book loads. Can't work loads at all just go max.

[Cornbread]

Seems your the only one with an issue with the design and or the designers of the cartridge. I've never experienced a single problem with the exception of trying to reduce H-110. Not a single primer problem of any kind and I think my 454 had plenty of both life and accuracy.

Rick

Amen to that!!
I don't have as much experience with the .454 as some, (I hunt exclusively with the .44) but after hundreds of rounds from my M83s, I have had no problems with the small rifle primers( Rem 7 1/2) and 296. I have quite a few friends that have extensive experience with the .454 and they all seem to feel as I do!!

Bob

Yep same here. I've never had an issue with CCI SR primers and a full load of H-110 and I live in Montana and it gets cold with a capital "C" here. There is probably no issue with the WSR primers either I just don't care for Winchester primers. A lot of guys love them and they work great for them so that is purely personal preference on my part not something anyone should base their primer choice on. What I can tell you for sure is that with CCI SR primers and H-110 full house loads I have had zero problems with ignition. Sore hand problems when using my 2" 454 snubby, yes, but ignition problems no.

Like a few have mentioned, never, ever download H-110. I dislike H-110 for the narrow window it has between not going off, and going off like a bomb. For this reason I prefer 4227. Again personal preference because I like to be able to go up and down a ways depending on which of my 454s I am shooting. H-110 does not give me that flexibility, 4227 does to a much larger extent and that meets my needs/wants.

It looks like the OP found the problem, light strikes due to the primer not being fully seated so the primer slides in when hit leading to crummy ignition in some cases.

[Whiterabbit]

I don't understand everyone's aversion to downloading H110. Truly, honestly, seriously, in 454 it is easy and safe. Just keep pushing the bullet down till the base hits the powder, 0% compression. (and 0% empty airspace in the case!)

No issues, and you all have likely read of ruger only loads in 45 colt which (65ksi notwithstanding) are, for all intents and purposes, reduced 454 cassull loads. The difference? Not leaving empty space in the case.

OF COURSE it's a recipe for squibs if you maintain the same OAL thus expanding the amount of airspace in the case. However, in a revolver we have the luxury of seating OAL wherever we want, assuming we properly expand the case to get solid neck tension on the case.

I promise you all, it works, and you can prove it by using H110 45 colt loads (with 45 colt OAL) in 454 cases in your 454 revolvers. It does work.

[Cornbread]

I don't understand everyone's aversion to downloading H110. Truly, honestly, seriously, in 454 it is easy and safe. Just keep pushing the bullet down till the base hits the powder, 0% compression. (and 0% empty airspace in the case!)

No issues, and you all have likely read of ruger only loads in 45 colt which (65ksi notwithstanding) are, for all intents and purposes, reduced 454 cassull loads. The difference? Not leaving empty space in the case.

OF COURSE it's a recipe for squibs if you maintain the same OAL thus expanding the amount of airspace in the case. However, in a revolver we have the luxury of seating OAL wherever we want, assuming we properly expand the case to get solid neck tension on the case.

I promise you all, it works, and you can prove it by using H110 45 colt loads (with 45 colt OAL) in 454 cases in your 454 revolvers. It does work.

I guess I should clarify, don't download H-110 at regular OAL for 454 Casull.

I shoot Ruger only H-110 45 colt loads in my Ruger convertible 45 colt / 45 acp and Whiterabbit is correct, it works fine you just can't do the same thing with 454 cases and crimp in the normal crimp groove for your standard 454 OAL or you leave airspace and you get big problems.

[happie2shoot]

I don't understand everyone's aversion to downloading H110. Truly, honestly, seriously, in 454 it is easy and safe. Just keep pushing the bullet down till the base hits the powder, 0% compression. (and 0% empty airspace in the case!)

No issues, and you all have likely read of ruger only loads in 45 colt which (65ksi notwithstanding) are, for all intents and purposes, reduced 454 cassull loads. The difference? Not leaving empty space in the case.

OF COURSE it's a recipe for squibs if you maintain the same OAL thus expanding the amount of airspace in the case. However, in a revolver we have the luxury of seating OAL wherever we want, assuming we properly expand the case to get solid neck tension on the case.

I promise you all, it works, and you can prove it by using H110 45 colt loads (with 45 colt OAL) in 454 cases in your 454 revolvers. It does work.

You sound like Veral Smith, years ago I called him and asked him about wc-820 and he said seat it on down on the
powder just like H-110 and you will love it, have gone through 3 eight lb kegs of 820 and 4 eight lb kegs of H108,
he and you are right.

[Whiterabbit]

the voice of experience. Funny thing? It works for 460 S&W too. I've loaded 45 colt loads in 460 cases, 454 loads in 45 cases, and every combo minus 460 loads in 45 cases, it's just too small!

Also funny thing? Works for 38/357/357 max too!



For revolver, just have to make sure they don't jump since often you aren't in the crimp groove anyways. Easy enough to test. Taper crimp dies exist if crimp is truly needed.

I made myself a tool for load development:




No matter what powder, no matter what charge, I know how far to seat the boolit to put the boolit base on the powder. Marks are every .100 inches. I have one in .45 and one with a .25 rod for 7mm.

ALL my loads are 100% load density unless there is a specific reason to deviate.

[nighthunter]

I don't know what some of you didn't "get, comprehend or understand". 29.0 gr H-110 with a 300 gr cast bullet is not an under loaded charge of powder. You post the data as it appears in commonly available reloading publications and prove me wrong. Just because the primer went ffffffffttttttttttttt doesn't mean I charged the case with the wrong amount of powder. 44man trying to make his usual spiel against the 454 because of the primer size doesn't impress me much.

[Cornbread]

I don't know what some of you didn't "get, comprehend or understand". 29.0 gr H-110 with a 300 gr cast bullet is not an under loaded charge of powder. You post the data as it appears in commonly available reloading publications and prove me wrong. Just because the primer went ffffffffttttttttttttt doesn't mean I charged the case with the wrong amount of powder. 44man trying to make his usual spiel against the 454 because of the primer size doesn't impress me much.

Up until this post you never gave your bullet weight. People were guessing that you may have downloaded since you didn't specify bullet weight. Since you aren't downloading, it sounds like maybe a primer seating issue.

[Groo]

Groo here
I have an original 454 [ The factory ask if I wanted my order changed to adj sights as they just brought them out].
Also original LP brass. Never had a problem.
However, I got the gun to shoot heavy loads, never loaded to less than the middle of the charge weight.
The gun is designed to drive 240 to 260 gr bullets [ J-word] in the 2000 fps range so lighter loads were not considered.
My rule of thumb is, : no less than 90% fill to the bottom of the case and usually 95%.
Modern cases have less space than orginal,so over loading is little problem.
IF you are shooting an FA 83 don,t worry as a test was made with a cast 250gr boolet and a full case of BULLSEYE,,,,,, no damage.
If you want to load down, use a faster / easer to light powder [ 2400 , unique etc] and save the Magnum powders for the hot stuff.
A real nice load is Trailboss [full case ] and a cast 250gr boolet.

[Plastikosmd]

^ strong frame for sure, wonder what the pressure on that load was

[Whiterabbit]

I don't know what some of you didn't "get, comprehend or understand". 29.0 gr H-110 with a 300 gr cast bullet is not an under loaded charge of powder. You post the data as it appears in commonly available reloading publications and prove me wrong. Just because the primer went ffffffffttttttttttttt doesn't mean I charged the case with the wrong amount of powder. 44man trying to make his usual spiel against the 454 because of the primer size doesn't impress me much.

I sense some anger or general upset-ness within the text of this post. No need! No maliciousness on my end anyways, no hate, no anger. Just hte facts. Here's the bottom line: H110 does not like empty space in the case. Many powders are like this, but H110 is particularly intolerant. I don't care if a charge is over, under, high pressure, low pressure, etc etc etc. The moment you put air in the case, it BECOMES a low pressure load! At that time, squibbs become a risk.

But there are other ways to get a de-facto pressure reduction without empty airspace. For example, a weak crimp combined with poor case tension. This allows for easy boolit movement, which makes the expansion chamber expand sooner, which (of course!) reduces pressure. Some folks say they see improvement with a harder crimp. No surprises. I tell you I don;t crimp at all, even H110. I use neck tension to get me to the same place. What else? Use soft lead and a PB boolit. That also makes it easier to move no matter WHAT neck tension or crimp you put on it. That will always have less ignition pressure than a GC boolit or a hardcast. you don;t have to take my word for this, it is testable!

What else? The hotter primer of course reduces the risk of squibb because of the increased pressure. Some people don't need it? of course! They have enough of the other factors (qty of powder regardless of data, lack of airspace, sufficiently low expension chamber) to achieve the needed pressure for consistent ignition.

It's pretty straightforward.

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It applies with many ball powders. Great example is AA#9. Exactly the same, but with MUCH less sensitivity to expansion. So downloading is OK, but it will still reach the point of squibbing faster than other powders, and risk mitigation runs the same way.

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H110 is just sensitive, is all.

[High Desert Hunter]

I reserve H110 for the heaviest of loads, that is where it shines, in the past I have used every load in the book, from starting loads up through maximums with no issues. The small rifle primers are not an issue, I have used them in other applications, some of which they had to ignite even slower burning powder with no failures. In the AR platform, small rifle primers are the norm. The problem with H110 is as has been stated, air space within the case. Shooting an FA, I trim my brass to the bare minimum, and keep it there, this also reduces the amount of airspace when bullets are crimped in the crimp groove.