Help Choosing A Cap N Ball Revolver....

[jleneave]

I realize that this might not be the right forum for this but this one gets the most traffic, so I hope it is alright.

First off, I have absolutely no experience with black powder/muzzle loading firearms....NONE! But, I have wanted a cap and ball revolver ever since I can remember. I love about anything to do with the American Civil War and more in particular the Confederate side of the war.

Here is where I need help and a lot of it.... I need advice on choosing a good quality cap and ball revolver that will last me the rest of my life, but I on the same token I don't want to spend a fortune, lets say under $500.00. I want it to be from the civil war era (not an original, a reproduction) and in .44 caliber. I also have no idea what accessories I need to go along with the revolver. I will be casting my own round balls for the most part from flat stick on WW if that is alright? I know I would need to slug the chambers and the bore to get the correct mold, but about what size will I need. When it comes to slugging the chambers how do you get the slug back out? I know nothing about black powder and what type I would use in said revolver. I don't know what size percussion caps I would need either. I do understand what a chain fire is and a little of how to prevent it from reading on here. Any help you guys could give me I would be grateful, even if it is only directing me to a good website or other source of information. I would however like opinions of brands and models of revolvers that you would recommend.

Thanks in advance for the help. Hopefully I won't blow the revolver up or my hand off!!

Jody

[MtGun44]

I bought a Pieta 1860 Army from Cabelas - mailed directly to the house, cool!
Seems like it was $180 or so, pretty and works fine. I have heard that these
fail the cylinder bolt spring with some regularity, like the originals. The round
wire replacement from Brownells for the SAA is reputed to work fine, no personal
experience. Mine has been reliable.

Mine shoots fine, it prefers .457" balls over .454", YMMV. Mine will shoot about
6" groups at 25 yds, standing on my hind legs. Fun to shoot. You should ignore
the silly Crisco stuff and use a Wonder Wad over the powder - rammed, and then
seat the ball. Will shoot as long as you want without gumming up and no black
goop everywhere like with the crisco or similar over the loaded ball. The
crisco is a real bad idea, but is widely published. Elmer Keith learned the lubed
felt wad over the powder method from Civil War veterans when he was a kid,
it is the best way I have ever seen.

Bill

[Bent Ramrod]

The 1860 Army is the most user friendly cap and ball pistol I've shot. The rammer has more leverage due to its design and I could cap it with just my fingers. A .38 Spl case of black powder was a good target load, a .357 caseful for more power. It's also relatively light and very aesthetic looking.

With the arbor well lubed, I could get 60 shots before the cylinder began to turn hard. Taking it apart was a breeze, a wipe of the arbor with a wet rag and 12 or so more shots would be available before it froze up. Then it had to be taken home and really cleaned. A friend's 1858 Remington replica would usually give him 18 shots or so before the cylinder began turning hard. I never saw that his pistol was significantly more accurate than mine, either, although we didn't formally compete at targets.

I would advise against using wheel weights for casting bullets for these guns. I wore the wedge loose on my 1860 Army not from shooting but from ramming balls cast of range scrap and wheelweights into the chambers. However a new wedge was not expensive. My preference was .451" round balls. Only got a chain fire when I didn't smear grease on the front of the balls, and rarely then. Mine was a Navy Arms replica, purchased back in the early '70's and, alas, long traded off.

[calsite]

I had a Hege' Uberti, 1860 Army, that is the German company Hege', did some polishing up on an already existing Uberti. If your looking for the best in my opinion, Ruger makes one heck of a cap and ball but I really don't know how historically correct it is. I wouldn't be scared to by a Uberti either. There is another company called Taylor that carries some enhanced imported C&B's as well. If you're around some other C&B shooters they outta be able to get you started with a good ball powder combo. Stay away from the brass frames if you can, they shoot loose alot easier than a steel frame. 500 should be more than enough to buy you the whole outfit mould and all. Good Luck

[calsite]

I used Wonder Wads over my powder and never had a problem. Never greased.............

[jleneave]

Thanks guys for replying so fast.

MtGun44, Thanks for the info. I do like the looks of the 1860 models the best. I am looking at the Pietas and the Uberti but am not 100% set on them yet. I am glad to hear of the felt wads that will probably be the way I go. The Crisco over the ball sounds like it would be really messy. I don't think I like the idea of slinging grease all over the place. Do you know if it covers the shooter up with grease/oil when using the crisco method? Again, thanks for your input.

BentRamrod, Thank you for your input also. What type of powder are you using in the .38 special case? What other types of lead would you recommend me to use if not the flat stick on WW? I am new to casting also so my knowledge is a little limited at this point and any help/advice is valuable to me. Thank you for taking time to respond to my questions.

Calsite, I would also like to thank you for your input. Unfortunately I do not know anyone else in my area that shoots cap and ball revolvers. The only guys that I know that even shoot muzzle loaders all use the new fancy inline muzzle loading rifles. From the little that I have read on this site I am definitely going to go with a steel framed revolver. Not knocking anyone with a brass frame, but I think that I will shoot it quite a bit and want a revolver that I can shoot a lot and not have to worry about it working loose and still be able to hand it down to my kids or one day grandchildren if I ever have any. I have considered the Ruger especially since I hear they are going to discontinue thier line of cap and ball revolvers, but the ones I have seen don't appear to be period correct and I have my heart set on a revolver without a top straped frame. I will see what I can find out about the Taylor revolvers too. I will also check into the Wonder Wads. Thanks again for taking time to respond to my post.

Everyone please keep the information coming. I want to be as well informed as possible before I decide on one particular revolver and accessories. Thanks!

Jody

[andrew375]

For sheer longevity a Ruger Old Army is the way to go. I've had mine 32 years, put thousands of rounds through it and it still functions perfectly and puts 'em in the ten ring. Only repairs done is a new set of nipples and hammer.

Try to avoid the colts if you plan on shooting it a lot. I have a Walker repro and the base pin is severly cut at the cylinder gap, resulting in serious changes in vertical poi. Also the sights are crap. Great fun though if not very powerful.

[StrawHat]

I love about anything to do with the American Civil War and more in particular the Confederate side of the war.

I need advice on choosing a good quality cap and ball revolver
I want it to be from the civil war era (not an original, a reproduction) and in .44 caliber.

Civil War era immediately rules out the Ruger Old Army, (no great loss). And 44 limits you to the Colt 1860, and the various Dragoons. The CSA had the Dance Brothers revolver, made in limited quantities in Texas, but that was more of a rarity than the Walker Colt.

The most common revolver, in 44, had to be the 1860. Today, the same holds true. I have several and for the sake of simplicity use the 454 round ball in all of them.

The advice on the 38 case is good. Black powder (or a black powder substitute) is the ONLY powder to use! The ball must be in contact with the powder column, no air gap.

When it comes to slugging the chambers how do you get the slug back out?

Before you slug the chamber, unscrew the nipples. Use a brass or wood dowel to drive the ball back out. An oversize ball, 457 diameter, works well for this. You will need 7 (6 for the cylinder, 1 for the bore) so find a friend and borrow them.

Thanks in advance for the help. Hopefully I won't blow the revolver up or my hand off!!Jody

Yeah, that would inhale, especially, the second part. Black powder (or a black powder substitute) is the ONLY powder to use!

Shooting cap and ball revolvers is a fun sport. Relatively easy and safe. If there are any ranges near you, see if they have Cowboy Action Matches. If so attend one or two as a spectator and see if you know anyone.

Even if you don't know anyone, most shooters are more than happy to brag on their owns choices of gear and be willing to give advice.

If you have read about the CW, you know the limited number of handguns that were available. The italians have made a fine art out of producing what "should have been made" guns. Every thing from 1851 colts in 44 caliber to sheriffs models that were never factory produced.

If you want authentic CW, and 44, the 1860 is the real thing.

Top to bottom,

2nd Dragoon, 1860 and Pocket Police. The top two are 44. You can see the size difference.



If you have any more questions, sing out. We all started at the beginning so don't worry, nothing you ask cannot be answered!

[spurgon]

StrawHat

I have always thought that I would one day get a Ruger Old Army. I've never heard a disparaging comment about it to date. Maybe though , I misread your "no great loss" report. How do you advise?

"Civil War era immediately rules out the Ruger Old Army, (no great loss)."

[Newtire]

If you get a good deal on a Rogers & Spencer, you can't go wrong. Mine is a real good shooter & very accurate.

[jlchucker]

At one point or another, I have owned a replica of nearly every Colt cap n ball clone--Most I had purchased thru the mail, from EMF in California. All were of excellent quality, except that guns aquired during the early 1980's tended to shoot high. This made machining and installing a higher front sight necessary. Remington clones (of which I still have one, chopped to 51/2 inch barrel length, all shot spot on at 25 yd. The earlier poster is right about the 1860 Army--it's user-friendly. I have used .454 balls in all of my 44's with no trouble--still do. Real black powder works best as well. Pyrodex works, but is just as dirty as real black. I've been the full route on lubes, as well. Borebutter, in addition to being a great lube for loading works well on the base pins after cleaning and goes a long way toward solving cylinder-binding problems. The Walker and big dragoons look impressive and shoot well, but after using them a while you'll likely get weary of lugging them around. A great big gun means a great big cleanup after shooting, too. One model that I had for a while and gave to a friend as a gift was the .31 baby dragoon. It was a five-shot, the model with the rammer--just like a downsized Navy. Really cheap to shoot because readily available 0 buckshot in bags was essentially the same size as a .31 ball. Good luck.

[DLCTEX]

If you want a pistol to last a lifetime of heavy use, the ROA is at the top of the list. My colt 1851 navy by comparison is not as heavily constructed, but I like it's sleek lines and lighter weight. DALE

[bobk]

For best accuracy, the Rems are hard to beat, but they feel odd in my hand. I shot an 1861 and it was a joy to handle, and the accuracy was at least minute-of-tin-can. It's a .36, but other than that is the same as the 1860. No offense to anyone, but I think the Ubertis are better finished than the Piettas. I would avoid spending the money for one of the "original" finishes, as I have read that they don't protect the bore during the process, hence you end up with a rough bore. Just my personal taste, but I think any of them with a bead blast finish, but the cylinder left bright (bluing steel wooled off) would look kinda neat, if not original. And if you don't like it, you can always beadblast the cylinder.
Bob K

[Naphtali]

In terms of quality control, Pietta manufactures two versions of a M1858 Remington revolver. Its standard version, having among other things non-progressive rifling, is comparable with other good quality cap lock revolvers.

However, they also make, in steel and stainless steel, a fixed sighted competition revolver. Lock work is different from standard and not interchangeable. Rifling is progressive. Bore diameter is different. Chamber ID is different. In essence, this is a completely different revolver that looks like their standard version. This revolver is a gem, comparable with circa 1960s Colt Pythons in quality. The biggest problem would be to identify vendors.

For that ultimate home protection device, circa 1863, a LeMat Grapeshot revolver is the cat's meow. Nine-shot .45-caliber revolver with single-shot 20-gauge shotgun barrel acting also as center pin. And I have a vested reason to mention LeMats. I am selling a pair of them. Accept or reject information in this paragraph as you will.

[Char-Gar]

For pure quality and service life, the Ruger Old Army is the way to go. If you want one, you better hop on it, as they are discontinued and the prices are starting to climb

For Civil War accuracy, the Colt 1960 is the way to go in 44s. I would start with Cimarron Arms. They get the same Italian pistols, but they have strick quality control and excellent customer service. They don't sell the junk and all of the Italian produces can turn out some junk.

You might even be able to find a Colt Reissue. The parts for these were made in Italy and shipped to Colt in Hartford for assembly as finish. They as good as original Colts and have all of the proper Colt Markings. These were made in the 80s and are still around.

[jleneave]

StrawHat, that is a nice looking collection of cap and ball revolvers, I am a little jealous! Thanks for all the information and for taking the time to write such a detailed response. If you don't mind me asking what brand are the revolvers in the picture and where did you buy them, I hope I am not being too nosy and if I am set me straight. I understand not to use smokeless powder in a cap and ball revolver, that probably goes for all muzzle loading firearms don't it? (not really sure) What type of black powder/black powder substitute do you use in your revolvers? I really like the looks of the 1860 but several of the ones I have looked at online say they are set up to attach a stock. Does that detract from the appearance of the revolver at all? I have looked at some revolvers on Midway and they are having a sell this month on a couple of the Uberti revolvers and the 1860 is included in the sale. I also located an 1860 Uberti on midway that has a fluted cylinder that looks pretty good, but I kind of like the unfluted cylinder too. AAAHHHGGG.......to many to chose from.

Newtire, thanks for responding but I have no clue where I would even come across one of those. To be honest I have never heard of Rogers & Spencer.

What are the opinions of the Uberti cap and ball revolvers? The only thing that I am a little worried about is that the 1860 is set up to attach a stock to it and I wonder if it detracts from the looks? Has anyone on here ordered a Uberti revolver from Midway and if so were you happy with the purchase? There are no guns shops in my area that stock reloading equipment so I order all my reloading components from Midway with the exception of powder and primers and I get that at a gun shop that is 2 to 2 1/2 hour drive. So when I go to that shop I stock up on powder and primers. If anyone knows of a better place/website that deals with black powder equipment please let me know.

Keep the info coming, please.

I am really sorry to be such a pain in theA$$!! I live in a very rural place and I don't know anyone who shoots cap and ball revolvers so I am depending on you guys for guidance.......no pressure though, it is just up to ya'll to make sure that my first expierence with a black powder firearm is an enjoyable one and this expierence will decide if I get hooked on this type of shooting, or if I end up despising it and never touch anything else related to black powder shooting!!!! ............just kidding.

[jleneave]

jlchucker, thanks for taking the time to respond. I have read a lot of good things about the bore butter and I will definitley check into it more. I like the looks of the Walker but everyone complains about the ramrod falling away from the barrel while shooting and at times locking the gun up. If it wasn't for this problem I think that I would probably buy one. But since this is my first expierence with a black powder firearm I would like it to be as problem free as possible, at least until I get where I know what I am doing. Thank you for the information.

Dale & Chargar, thanks for your input. There is no doubt in my mind that the Ruger Old Army is the strongest of the bunch. I have owned a Ruger Blackhawk or Super Blackhawk since I was 15 years old. I saved my money all summer when I was 15 and Dad went with me to the gun shop and I bought my first handgun, a stainless Blackhawk in .357. Can you imagine letting a 15 yr old have a gun like that today? They would put you inder the jail for it, but back then school shootings were not heard of. I didn't know Cimmaron Arms put out a cap and ball, I will take a look at them, thanks for the heads up.

BobK, thanks for replying. I don't much care for the "original finishes" myself. While they do look more authentic, I like the looks of the blue revolvers better and don't want the problems with a unprotected barrel.

Naphtali, thanks for taking time to respond. The LeMat sounds like a wild looking gun, I don't guess I have ever seen one. As for home defense I will leave that to one of my Kimber 1911s or my Glock 21. With me being new to cap and ball revolvers I don't trust myself to be proficient enough to protect my family with one, but I bet in 1863 the LeMat would have been a good choice. Thanks again for the information.

I am still a little confused as to what type of black powder to use or not to use (ex. FFg, FFFg, ect.)

Jody

[xtimberman]

Use 3FG grade Black Powder in your C&B revolver.

I have a Colt 1851 Navy in .36 cal, so I can't comment on .44. This is the second one I've had - the first one was a Robert E. Lee Commemmorative, and I shot the heck out of it. My buddy has a Rem. .44 Army clone by Pietta, and it's more trouble-free and less likely to gum up than my Colt. That doesn't jibe with other observations, but it's just my experience.

If you really want to hand something down to the kids, you need to get a genuine Colt. JMO.

xtm

[StrawHat]

spurgon,

If you want a ROA have at it but do it quick, Ruger pulled the plug on them and prices are climbing.

jleneave was looking for a Civil War replica and whatever the ROA is, it isn't a replica of anything from the CW!

I am a traditionalist. For me an inline is an underhammer.

jleneave,

In that photo, all three revolvers are Ubertis, the Dragoon and the 1862 were imported by Replica Arms of Marietta Ohio. Replica was bought out by Navy Arms in the 70s. The 1860 was bought used at the Log Cabin Shop, Lodi Ohio. The Log Cabin is still in business and the Kindigs are some of the most knowledgeable fellows to ever strike a flint. And more than willing to help a newcomer or oldtimer. The boys took over after Wes passed on and have continued to further the black powder sports at matches and in the Halls of Congress. If you are ever near Lodi Ohio, it would be miles well driven to visit.

Most 1860s, 1861s and 1851s are set up for a shoulder stock. It is the rare replica that isn't. Some like the stocks some don't. Stay away from them until you are comfortable with C&B shooting.

Fluted cylinders were used on very few original Colts. Some Dragoons, 1860s and 1861s were set up that way but many were returned to Colts to have the cylinders replaced after they burst. Ironmongering was not the science it is today.

I forgot about the Rogers and Spencer revolver. My memory is not what it was 40 years ago.

I also did not mention the Remington. And I like that gun. It was one of the first revolvers I ever fired. I was shooting with a BP competitor and he let me fire his target revolver. It was an original Remington 44. The chambers were reamed for uniformity, a S&W adjustable sight was let into the topstrap and a Patridge front sight was installed on the barrel. Looking back, it was one of the most accurate revolvers I have ever seen fired. Wish I knew where it was today.

If you look at the 1860 in my post, that is not the modern "original" finish. That is what happens to a blued gun that gets used, a lot.

that is a nice looking collection of cap and ball revolvers, I am a little jealous!

Thank you, I have another picture with more of them. As for jealous, no need for that. I generally buy guns when they are broken or don't shoot the way the owner expects. In other words, cheap. Then I fix them up to work.

I've also been at this for 40 years so they tend to accumulate.

Time to shut up....yeah you're right, too late!

[Bull Schmitt]

If you would like more info on Remington style revolvers visit SCORRS