Keep Getting Bullets stuck In Point Form Die

[gvanzeggelaar]

Good Day.

I have a set of Brian's swaging dies for 22 cal

the problem is no matter what I do every other bullet is getting stuck. When I try to eject the ejector pin goes right into the lead core. If I try to close the tip up more the ejector pin still goes into the lead core and sometimes will punch right through the bullet. This happens regardless of how much lube i use. It will even get stuck if I push the bullet in the die only halfway, before it even begins to form a point.

Lube: 1-1 lanolin and caster oil
Core alloy: 1-1 pure and range scrap. Maybe this is too hard or something?

Anyone have any tips or insight into what I am doing wrong?

the point form die itself looks flawless.

Thanks in advance.

Edit:
I just tried with pure lead cores. Same problem. I sent Brian a pm. He will make it right or straighten me out. Whatever needs to be done. ��

[n.h.schmidt]

Did you get any help yet? The thing that most fits your observation is. Maybe your core swage die is making the jacket with the core seated, too large. To easily go into the point forming die. It should enter the point forming die with almost no effort.
n.h.schmidt

[gvanzeggelaar]

That's a good point. Maybe I'll send both dies to BT and he can have a look. I'll take some measurements when I get home

[fredj338]

I used the sample bullet BT sent to set the die, about 1k bullets so far, not a single stuck.

[clodhopper]

Expanding on Schmitt's comments, Measure jacket diameter going into the core seat die, then measure it coming out. It works better for me if there is still some bullet expansion to get done in the point form die.

[303british.com]

I used the sample bullet BT sent to set the die, about 1k bullets so far, not a single stuck.

That's wonderful, but doesn't really help with his problem. If BT cannot help him via PM or email, he'll probably want the die back to fix things. If that's the case, something is wrong with the die.

[303british.com]

Expanding on Schmitt's comments, Measure jacket diameter going into the core seat die, then measure it coming out. It works better for me if there is still some bullet expansion to get done in the point form die.

Yes, I agree with this. Typically, for a .224 bullet, the diameter going in should be approx. 0.2235". Pointing up the bullet should bring it to the finished diameter.

[gvanzeggelaar]

The problem is it is a new point form die. He replaced my last one after I made many thousand bullets with it. (I screwed it up. It didn't wear out). I think the jacket with seated core is too big for pf die. I'll wait for BT response.

[303british.com]

If that's the case then you'll need a new die. All the best.

[Cane_man]

a few things you can try...

1) make sure the seated cores are spotless, run them through your tumbler with lemishine to get them clean and shiny

2) polish the inside of the die with some flitz metal polish... if you have a small lathe use that, or you can do it by hand with qtips... or you can use some 0000 steel wool

3) make sure you are only pushing the seated core up to the top and no further, if lead is being pushed out the open tip they you have gone too far!

4) clean the pointing die with denatured alchol with a qtip before using it, heat it some, prelube it with a qtip and lanolin...

just keep playing with it trying different things and eventually it will get better... seems like the die when new has a "break in" period then it smooths out... good luck

edit:

5) one more thing than can help is to use some bore moly and treat the inside of the die with this, it helps

[Utah Shooter]

I thought the ejection pin was to push on the meplat and not the lead? Perhaps you are not closing the tip enough?

[fredj338]

That's wonderful, but doesn't really help with his problem. If BT cannot help him via PM or email, he'll probably want the die back to fix things. If that's the case, something is wrong with the die.

My point is, is he setting the die up correctly? The sample solid bullet was a great help setting up the point forming die.

[303british.com]

For different bullets made in one die, you are better off buying some extra pins and trimming them to the correct length. That saves a lot of heartache and fussing with the set up.

[BT Sniper]

Been out of office for last few days chasing elk. I'll look into it and get a reply to you right quick.

Brian

p.s. seen an entire heard of over 100 head of elk but they where two canyons over so nothing yet.

[BT Sniper]

For different bullets made in one die, you are better off buying some extra pins and trimming them to the correct length. That saves a lot of heartache and fussing with the set up.

My point form die works a bit different then what you may have. No need to adjust the ejection pins or have different lengths, unless in the case of my dies you might be referring to the base punch that pushes the bullet into the die then yes you could have different lengths made for different bullet weights and you would never need to adjust the die in the press. So far the need for additional different length base punches has been unnecessary.

I'll get the OP all taken care of. I'll have some ideas posted soon. Already sent PM.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Lets see.... some tips to avoid sticking bullets in the point form dies.

First off do not panic, sticking a bullet in the point form die happens to all of us and with any make of die eventually. I'll always be happy to remove any stuck bullets free of charge. Of course this offer is a bit more troublesome when the customer is out side the quick shipping of the US.


I am sending out stuck bullet removal tools with all my point form dies now. Before attempting to remove a stuck bullet review the following thread pics and videos regarding the use of these tools and then still consider your personal abilities and weather you would simply wish to send me the die instead.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...dies&highlight=


Knowing that the OP here was an "international" customer I took extra care to ensure the die was in top working order. I'm certain we will get him back on track or identify the problem.

Do not use any fine steel wool or lapping/polishing compound in the die, it is very easy to ruin a point form die in the lapping process, believe me I KNOW! I'm OK with Flitz and Q-Tips if the customer wishes to "clean" the die but the customer should not have to lap or polish, aka. "remove" any material (steel) from the die, that is my job, if your die needs additional lap or polish please allow me to do it for you. Of course I do my best to ensure this will never be the case before the die even leaves the shop.

So here are all the tips I can think of to avoid sticking bullets in the point form die in no particular order ....

1- Always use the auto eject system I supply with the dies

2- always ensure the jackets are spotless and free from any left over scale in the annealing process, stainless steel media tumbling is the best method I have found to clean the 22lr brass jackets and remove this scale

3- avoid any second attempts to form a bullet in the point form die that has already been formed, especially if it was made in a different point form die.

4- ensure the seated core and jacket combination is a smaller diameter then the bullets formed in the point form die, typically we are looking for .2235 out of the core seat die and .2240 in the point form die. Just as long as the seated core and jacket are smaller, even .0001 works, then the point form die.

5- A warm die will always work better then a cold point form die, if you are indoors you should be fine but if your equipment is in a cold shop or garage then a space heater in front of the die and press is a good idea.

6- use a bit of lube with every bullet formed. I have never encountered a bullet that got stuck because it had "too much" lube.

7- The solid brass control bullets I have recently sent out have been set up using 52-53 grain bullets, slight differences in bullet weights from the weight the control bullet was set at may require slight adjustments of the die in the press.

8- pure lead cores will actually allow the small ejection pin to push threw it easier then a mixed alloy core. Granted we wish to push against the formed tip of the jacket of the bullet rather then the inside core. I still recommend using as soft a core as possible.

One thing to do.... if you have a good Micrometer, measure the diameter of the bullets you where making in the old die and the ones that you are making now.

I'll think of more to add to this list as it comes to me.

I don't think your alloy or hardness of the core is the issue.

I do think there is something to be said about a little time for the die to "break in" but it is my goal for the die to work correctly from day one in the customer's hands and feel any break in of the die is un necessary and should go unnoticed if there is any change at all, again I do not think this is the issue either.

There are only three potential real issues I can think of for the OP at the moment.

1. the core seat die is, or has gotten too big at a diameter more then .2240, shouldn't be a problem with the nitride processed core seat dies but could be an issue with your untreated core seat die. (if this is in fact the case I'll take care of you and swap it with the new nitride processed core seat die) I have actually been able to take a slightly larger core seat die and make it work with a slightly smaller point form die but the difference was within a couple tenths or less and certainly isn't anything that I would send out in a matching pair of core seat and point form die.

2. Dirty brass jackets, still has left over scale from the annealing process

or

3. it is my fault with a slight imperfection in the finish and form in the bullet cavity of the point form die.


We'll get it all figured out for you and get you back on track one way or another.

Brian

p.s. not to rub it in but with every 22 cal point form die I have put together in the last 2 months I have not stuck one bullet yet! I typically make anywhere from 20-100 bullets with every customer's point form die to ensure it is polish/lapped correctly and working properly, I now have over 1,000 bullets made just from simply setting up each customer's point form dies. I am confident there is a solution to the challenge the OP is experiencing in this case. I know it can be frustrating but hang in there, it just takes a little while to get to know the personality of a new die and if we don't well then we will simply get a different one.

[rolltide]

You just can't beat Brain for service after the sale. First rate customer service.

[BT Sniper]

Think we have found the culprit to the stuck bullet problem. Seems the seated core and jacket where coming out of the core seat die at a diameter larger then the point form die. That will do it! This was a set of my 22 cal dies I had sent out quite a while ago before I started Nitride processing all my dies. I suspect the new Nitride finish to the dies will prolong any such ware to the dies that would lead to oversized situations like this here.

Just to review a bit of advise for these 22 cal dies, these are small bullets! It doesn't take a lot of effort to perform either the core seat operation or point form operation. Try to use as little pressure as necessary, just enough to get the job done and make a perfect bullet. Any additional pressure applied to your equipment is just unnecessary ware and tare.

I'm actually relieved the OP found the core seat die to have worn a bit big (again keep in mind this was my older dies before Nitride processing). Replacing a core seat die is a lot less work then fixing a troubled point form die. I suspect when I get a new matching set of core seat die and point form die to the customer he will be right back on track.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[runfiverun]

that little amount of pressure is actually a lot of pressure in a reloading or swaging press.
I have found that backing things off until I just get what I want, or just barely feel things taking shape through the handle has produced better more consistent bullets for me.

the core seat die is where the magic happens, the point form die is just a shape changer.

[Prospector Howard]

This is all very interesting to me. I remember a thread awhile back where a member and I got into a discussion about the core seating process. He showed a picture of some his jackets that had actually split from applying a huge amount of pressure when he seated the cores. His idea IIRC is that you should put as much pressure seating the core as possible without splitting the jacket (a few might split in the process) to get the best possible bullets, and that's another reason to use a dedicated swaging press. My contention was that it wasn't necessary to put that much pressure on the core to get good shootable bullets, and that enough pressure to seat the cores properly is attainable in a good reloading press like the Lee Classic Cast that I'm using. I'm curious to know if the OP was using a reloading press or a dedicated swaging press to get that kind of wear and tear on his core seating die, or if there is some other reason. The core seating die seems to get the least abuse when I swage bullets.