Sporterized 1903 in 308 Norma Mag. Need so help from the old guys

[yotatrd4x4]

Ok I am looking to pickup a nice sporterized 1903. All looks good and the receiver is a rock island with 380k serial so it should be good to go receiver wise as its I think nickel steel and above the 280k where they were known to have bad heat treating. Anyhow it looks to be in good shape with nice walnut stock, beuhler low safety, forged bolt handle. Also has been drilled/tapped and wears weaver bases. I can't see where it had sights so it may be a replacement barrel or someone did a good job before blueing it. It is currently a 308 norma mag and owner currently says it was bought from an old woman who's husband had been gone for sometime and she found it in his closet. Bore looks great and he says it feeds fine and he has 3 fired brass for me to look at as well. He doesn't reload but got the rifle with brass and dies with 3 rounds of live ammo left so he fired it to see how it worked. Said it went without a hitch but he didn't fire for groups. So for all you older fellers who played with these rifles what do I need to look for or check out other than normal stuff like headspace? I plan to do a chamber cast, also bed the wood stock with devcon or another tuff epoxy. For reloading I'm not going to push the limits with hot loads just gonna run published data that I have in a few manuals. Seems 1 says 52k psi and another says no limit was ever set by norma and it pushes 65k psi. The speer manual has it loaded to just over 30-06 but well under 300 win mag. The hornady manual shows it duplicating 300 win mag. Anyway what say the old timers who know these rifles and this particular conversion? Should I keep it and hunt with it? I know she's nearly 100 but that's a lot of history and character that I do like.

[BruceB]

If the fired cases look alright, there's no real need for a chamber cast.

If you buy the rifle, just do a normal load work-up until the rifle itself says "Enough".

The .308 Norma is a very capable cartridge, and will deliver considerably more energy than the .30'06. (I am a fan of the '06, but do like the Norma load.)

I think that 3000 fps with a 180-grain bullet is well within reach.

Brass is easily made from 7mm Remington Magnum cases with just neck expansion and full-length sizing.

If the price is acceptable for the rifle's condition, I'd grab it. You will NEVER be able to see the difference between .308 Norma and .300 Winchester in the field. Ken Waters in "Pet Loads" shows the two cartridges in an absolute tie for velocities with 180-grain bullets .... which I think is the most useful weight in .30-caliber magnums.

Yes, the serial number places the rifle well within the "high number" class of 1903s. It sounds like a very good hunting rifle.

[crappie-hunter]

I inherited my dads 308 norma that he had built from a Smith Corona 4 groove. It was built some time in the late 50"'s or early 60's, it was his elk rifle and was very effective. I just looked at his elk rack from 1967 that measures 52+ inches taken somewhere in Wyoming. He claimed he shot the elk in excess of 900.yds? The story goes that the elk was shot late in the day and was not recovered until sometime the next day,and the maggpies had ruined the meat so all he brought home was the antlers.

180 J-words at 3000 fps are quite possible, however at 72yrs I no longer enjoy the recoil of that load so I had a brake installed,which I believe actually improved the accuracy of the rifle, and definitely reduced the recoil to acceptable levels, noise however now is a different story, excessively loud now with the brake. I make my brass from 338 win mag brass and even the fire forming loads are suitable for hunting. I have only ever taken a Pa. black bear with it, so now it's mostly a safe queen. If the price is right right you'll enjoy it.

I have shot some 200gr cast out of it and accuracy was exceptional at 50yds, but I am just not into shooting a big magnum case with itty bitty powder charges and cast bullets. I think I have better cartridge choices for cast (30-30).

[yotatrd4x4]

BruceB,

thank you for the advice. I think its a good deal as its part of a trade I'm working on. The rifle is valued at $350 in trade value so I would say its not a bad price. The wood looks great and has a lot of figure. I will probably rework the stock some as I don't like the curves of the 50s-60s era stocks. All looks pretty good from the pictures but I'm going to inspect the rifle in person in a week or 2. From the images brass looks pretty good with no obvious rings or bulges. I did read most like to use 7mm rem mag or 338 win mag brass to make norma mag brass. I could care less what the headstamp reads as this will be my only magnum caliber rifle and I usually mark the bases of converted brass with nail polish or markers. Haha yes I steal my wife's unwanted nail polish to use as locktite and case markers.

[yotatrd4x4]

Crappie-Hunter,

thanks for the insight. I am still young at 31 and since I'm in Alaska I have gotten used to big thumpers as there are big bitters up here in some areas. I have a 340 weatherby that I am gonna get rid of since it uses too much powder and is too heavy for my tastes but I got it really cheap. I plan to trade it for the 1903 and a AR15 Carbine so I figure its not a bad deal since I really want another AR and also need a longer range hunting rifle. I do have a 450 Marlin in an 1895 but prefer it for still hunting or thick timber. I figure the 308 norma will be my open country Caribou rifle but it still has the punch to drop a grizz or brown bear with a nice 180gr tsx or a 200gr partition. I plan to only use 180-200gr bullets in it if all works out well.

[MattOrgan]

I had a low numbered '03 that had been rebarreled to .308 Norma for years, 26" heavy sporter barrel and a nice 1960s style stock. I shot it regularly but always worried a little about it. Several years ago I found a high numbered Rock Island '03 that had been poorly converted ( 3 holes in that small rear bridge, but I was able to make a one piece Redfield base work) chopped up issue stock and a badly rusted barrel. Was able to take my barrel,converted bolt, hinged floor plate and switch it to the Rock Island action. It even head spaced with no more work that screwing the barrel tight. Didn't look too bad with the glossy black barrel and the arsenal finished receiver. A good friend ended up with it in a trade( he'd always wanted it but the low numbered receiver scared him). I don't know who made the barrel but it has a neat stamp of a horse head like Paladin had on his holster. As someone stated earlier there's not a bit of practical difference in any of the common .300 Magnums (Winchester, Norma, H&H, Weatherby) also 180 to 200 grain bullets are the way to go, they reduce recoil and offer much better down range performance. I'm partial to 220 grain RN bullets in my grandfather's .300 H&H because he always used them for elk. As far as performance the .308 Norma is essentially the .30/.338, one of, if not the best long range target rounds in .30 caliber. As far as converting brass I'd use .338 brass to neck down. It works easier and gives more uniform necks in my experience. As far as cast, I have no experience in any .300, I have enough trouble making my 06 rifles shoot well. Sounds like it could be a good rifle and a good deal for you. Let us know how it works out.

[13Echo]

If you want a magnum .30 calibre rifle the Norma is a fine cartridge and was the best way to get a .30 mag that would feed through a regular length action till the .300 Win came out. It is slightly shorter than the Winchester and has a bit longer neck. I believe loading data is still published in various manuals. Norma may still have brass, otherwise, like MattOrgan suggested, I'd neck down .338 Win Mag. Just neck size or minimally resize the fireformed cases after that. It's a neat cartridge as is its sister the .358 Norma Magnum.

Jerry Liles

[yotatrd4x4]

The rifle will come with 115 once fired original Norma brass so I shouldn't need any for a long time but I always like to be able to form brass from common calibers. I know norma still makes and sell brass but it's too high for my tastes so I can get 338 for near nothing up here to use. I have plenty of loading data as stated in the above posts I made. My main concern is looking over the rifle real good. For you fellers who have basically the same rifle I may be getting did the few rails get opened up and has the feedramp been altered?

[BruceB]

The only reason I mentioned 7mm Mag brass, was this: Have you tried to find .338 brass recently? Lotsa luck, amigos.

Just last week, *I* was reforming 7mm Rem Mag cases to..... .338! I was mighty glad to get them, too.

Yes, of course the .338 makes good .308 Norma brass. The reduction is usually not severe enough to require neck-reaming. In using 7mm Rem Magnum, the necks are amply thick for bullet retention, too.

Either one works fine.

[SOFMatchstaff]

Grabit,grabit grabit...... Ive had one for years , 1903, 26" tube, stout sporter stock, home made brake, and it is a keeper.

i use the 300mag brass to do the chamber match, as the 7mm and 338 stuff comes up short in my chambering. the older conversions
varied dependng on who the smith got the reamer from, mine came with the reamer, so I have a good idea what the brass should spec to.
Its not a hard task to figure out what the max case length should be, and the longer neck is a benefit. factory Norma brass is stupid expensive and no better for our purposes than good 300win mag stuff.

I have no qualms pushing a 173gr match to 3125fps with a dose of AA-3100 or 4831, the 180gr match bullet is a tad slower but more accurate.
You will have classic rifle in a excellent caliber.

I have lots of 338 mag brass, 7mm mag too, but he 300 works better.

[opos]

I'm an old geezer (77) and in the 50's and 60's built a number of milsurp conversions...I have a real soft spot in my heart for them today...don't hunt any more but love the old thumpers with a Fajen or Bishop stock...well done.., etc...I have an 03A3, a big ring 98 Mauser and a 1917 Enfield (Winchester)...the going prices with scope rings and well done with no cracks or problems with the metal seem to be from $300-$400...which is one heck of a bargain if it all checks out...I also have scoped them with "period correct" K4 Weavers made in El paso back in the day....love to shoot them and they often get lots of interest...I won't buy a buba cut down rifle and won't touch an original but the old well done ones are wonderful.

[yotatrd4x4]

This 1 seems pretty good here's a few pictures of it. Well it's both rifles I'm supposed to be getting but it's obviously the lower 1. It has a 6x redfield but he asked if he could keep it and I have a pretty good scope to stick on it anyway.

[yotatrd4x4]

Here is the brass and dies to show their age.

[yotatrd4x4]

The rifle I'm trading is a recent USA made Westherby Accumark in 340 weatherby. These retail around $1500 to $2100 but used they go for around $1000 from what I can find. I figure his AR is worth $700. It is a mix of parts but they are all good quality and its unfired. Lower is DTI with Stag lower parts kit. Upper is DPMS A2 carbine. I am wanting to get at least $1000 value out of my Accumark so I figured the AR and the 1903 if it looks good in person would be a fair trade. What do you all think? Good trade or would you keep the Mark V Accumark and not think of trading on this deal?

[opos]

Nice 03 as long as all the goodies are in good shape..I'd guess its probabaly had a replacement trigger..maybe a timney...stock looks like a Fajen delux grade from around the late 50's to early 60's...beautiful piece of wood...with the scope base and the rings, as long as it's solid and not damaged I'd give $350- $400 in a heartbeat for that gun..make sure the scope you have will work and will clear the bolt when installed..I have a Mauser with a bent handle that is just about 1/16 shy of letting the bolt function fully...so I had to go to higher rings.....again depending on all the normal things you would check...but I'm in love with that kind of gun...they are not easy to sell...hunters don't want them because of the wood stocks being fragile, subject to warp and needing attention...rather have the composite that they can just dump in the truck and go hunting...

My 2Cents.

[yotatrd4x4]

He is keeping the scope and rings. I think my scope will clear as the objectives are near same size at the eye piece from online specs. I do have a few sets of rings to raise or lower it as need be. I have a big noggin so I can use high rings and be fine with most stocks. Personally I just like the look and feel of wood over the plastic stocked junk today. I probably should have been born in the 30s or 40s instead of the 80s. I'm pretty odd by today's standards when it comes to rifles and handguns. I don't think wood is fragile since the m1 carbine, garand, m14 all survived some of the worst fighting in history and kept on humming. Heck look at mosins and mausers they did it too and not to mention the old sks. I am not a gun snob but unless the stock is Kevlar and fiberglass with aluminum bedding then I would just as rather have wood.

[crappie-hunter]

Looks just like mine except for that nice burl on the butt stock, mine has a straight grain stock. Very nice grabit. You've sparked my interest I might just take mine to the woods for whitetail this year. Think it's enough gun?????

A vintage K4 weaver would look real good on that one.

[yotatrd4x4]

I do think I'm going to trade with the feller as long as he and I agree when he comes to town. I do like the burl in the stock. I would say your 308 norma ought to be a hammer on deer and I'm pretty it will drop 1 at some long range as well. I may parkerize the bolt since it looks a little rough since it's been left in the original steel finish. I know it won't quite match but it will protect it anyway. I will be posting more pictures of the rifle once I get it. I may refinish the whole rifle in a parkerized finish in a darker black. Also gonna clean up the lines on the stock some and steel wool it real good before I do some BLO or other finish on it. On a side note I may just clean up the rifle and stock with some steel wool then hunt the old girl. I hope this old warhorse works out for me and I can put her into service again in a different way of course but she will be useful once again.