Finally got my 1st Enfield

[Brithunter]

This case head separation seems to be talked about a lot on the web but I can honestly say I have never seen it on hand loads only poor quality Military ammunition. I must admit most of my own hand loading was done using HXP 69 brass which is of excellent quality and of course the web is of the correct size unlike most American commercial brass which is well under size. I used this under sized brass mainly, RP headstamp, to make 6.5x53R cases which are smaller at the web. if the RP brass was correctly sized then without turning the web down in diameter they simply would not chamber in the Mannlicher model 1892.

It's this undersized web in the 303 which causes the problems as the web has to expand at least 0.005" before it reaches the size it should be and then it has to expand more to fit the chamber. This over works the brass and so it fails at this point. Yes some chambers especially those made during WW2 can be reamed too large but then reloading the cases was never envisaged by the British Military so it was NOT a problem. This did however ensure that all ammunition fitted even out of spec stuff of which there was quite a bit in circulation during WW2.

One entire shipment from Winchester was found to be so out of spec it was relegated for machine gun use only.

Now as at one time I was loading for 8 different 303 rifles the case were always full length sized and as I said not one case head separation. So either I am extremely lucky or using brass with the correct size web made a lot of difference. The rifles varied from the Martini AC 11 converted by the Henry Rifle Barrel Company in 1898 to a couple of Century Arms P-14 sporting conversion one of which had such a tight chamber we found not dies that would size cases fired in any other rifle down enough to chamber in it. I had this one reamed out to .303 Improved. Shame the 6 groove barrel is over size in the grooves. It's larger than any of the original barrels on the other rifles. God only knows where the barrel maker got the specs for it from!! I had a pair of Parker-Hale sporterised No1 Mk111's one issued to Australia and the other bearing new Zealand markings, a No1 Mk111 made by SSA under the pedalled scheme, a commercial sporting rifle made by BSA that had been re-barrelled with a 39' dated barrel before I acquired it and a No4T sans scope and mount.

Currently only own only own 4 303 rifles there being:-

BSA Model E (sporting rifle build on P-14 around 1952)
BDA Model C built between 1948-53
Parker-Hale Supreme No4 sporter
Century Arms P-14 sporting conversion in 303 Imp.

The 303 Imp cases are fire formed using Winchester commercial brass .................... remember it was a tight chamber and formed cases measure only 0.454" at the expansion ring by the web.

Choose the case to fit the chamber and you will not see many if any case head separations IMHO.

[Artful]

Brithunter, can you tell me more about the ammo relegated for machine gun use only?

[Love Life]

Thank you for the info BritHunter!!

Based off of something post by Larry Gibson ( I think), I have chosen to only neck size and do a small shoulder bump should the brass become hard to chamber in the future.

[BruceB]

There certainly WAS ammunition that was made for machine-gun use only, but the LAST place that one would want sub-standard ammunition was in a machine-gun unit.

The barrel-wear pattern in the water-cooled Vickers machinegun (where the guns routinely fired thousands of rounds in a DAY) differed radically between cordite-loaded and nitrocellulose-loaded ammunition. This difference was sufficiently great that barrels used with cordite were expressly forbidden for some uses, i.e.: "NOT FOR OVERHEAD FIRE".

This was due to the wide dispersion caused by such barrels, thus endangering troops below the nominal trajectory.

Whenever possible, Vickers units were supplied with the nitrocellulose ammunition (Mk VIIIz), and considerable effort was exerted to do so. The "z" in the headstamp denotes nitrocellulose powder.

I have MOST DEFINITELY seen case separations in .303 rifles after full-length resizing, and it was due to setting the shoulders back two or three times and then blowing them forward again on each firing.

Case diameters ahead of the rim are indeed often too small, but this is not the cause of the separations. Typical separations in my experience occur well ahead of the case web, where the expansion of the case is usually quite evident even on first firing.

My BREN machinegun was very bad for separations, as it was fairly well-worn and had headspace issues as a result. It got to the point that I had RCBS cut a custom sizing die to match the chamber of one of its barrels. This helped a bit, but not very much. (That die includes the letters "sp" for "special" in its markings.)

When the case separated, the gun would drive the next round into the remains of the separated case and jam the gun. Since removing the barrel was a two-second job, it was no great problem..... and I had several barrels.

When first loading new brass for my .303 rifles, I seat the bullet so far out that it firmly engages the rifling. This holds the case against the bolt and allows ONLY THE SHOULDER to move in the chamber, and immobilizes the rear of the case. In other words, it minimizes any damage to the brass at the place where separations usually occur.

From then on, only neck-sizing is used and case life is generally pretty good.

Just this week, I loaded several hundred rounds of cast-bullet loads for my three .303 rifles, and test-sized cases until I found a setting that allowed cases to chamber in all three..... this setting gave varying degrees of "feel" on closing the actions (Two #4 Rifles and a Ruger #1).

That "feel" ensures that the case is filling the chamber, and should not be damaged by having its back end pushed rearward until stopped by the bolt.

Tyhe shoulder of the .303 case is so small that a bolt-action rifle can actually set the shoulder back a few thousandths if needed when it cams to the locked position. This is not ideal, but it's better than further damaging the brass to the point of separation. It also means that a tight-fitting case is not the problem that it could be in a case with a larger and sharper shoulder.

I wouldn't load like this for service or hunting, but for range use the increased case life makes it worthwhile.

[Love Life]

To answer Artful- I plan to shoot cast, but 1st I need some factory ammo that is equivalent to the military load (sure do hope the PRVI is) to establish an accuracy base line for this rifle.

Then I'll get it all slugged up and go from there. Ideally, I'd like something in the 180 gr area cruising along in hopes of getting a CB load that shoots to the sights.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'm cornfused here about all this talk of case head separation and needing to have the cartridge set back against the bolt face and such.

Is this cartridge not a Rimmed Cartridge?

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc...%20British.pdf

As such doesn't it headspace on the rim itself?

The only reason I can see to fully set back the shoulder is to make it easier to close the bolt. A small set back on a fire formed case should be more than enough to suffice and that way the case head separation issue would be minimized?

More and more questions are flooding into my mind? This shouldn't be that hard.

Randy

[Love Life]

It's not that hard. Neck size until it won't chamber anymore an then shoulder bump .002-.004. Done.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=W.R.Buchanan;2896437]

Is this cartridge not a Rimmed Cartridge?

As such doesn't it headspace on the rim itself? QUOTE

Randy, Yes, it headspaces on the rim.

HOWEVER.....

It's the FACT that it headspaces on the rim, that allowed the production rifles to be manufactured with such grossly oversized chambers.

With ammunition being manufactured literally all around the globe. introducing vastly-different variables into the mix, plus the possiblity of battlefield crud adding still more variables and difficulties, it was a great boon to be able to field rifles with such oversized chambers.

I have personally owned issue .303 rifles in which the case shoulder would move forward almost a QUARTER OF AN INCH when fired with factory loads.

A handloader has the capability of setting his own headspace adjustments, and that's what we're talking about here.

MY .303 ammo, repeat, MY .303 ammo, does not headspace on the rim except by accident or providence. I treat the cartridge just as I do a rimless one, and the shoulder does the headspacing.

As long as the ammunition is used in the rifles for which I loaded it, all is fine. I make no guarantees about its functioning in someone else's rifles. That doesn't concern me.

If I was loading for a potential SHTF situation, or for an important hunt, I'd use new or once-fired brass and size a bit differently.

[Love Life]

I'm just patiently waiting for my parts to come in so I can put this old girl to work. I could shoot it as is, but there is a bit of movement to the fore-end. Hopefully putting in the new trigger guard screw collar will help remedy that.

Based off reading excerpts from a lecture by Peter Laidler, I believe I can handle the install. I guess my hope is for that crush fit while have no spring or bow to the trigger guard.

[Brithunter]

Brithunter, can you tell me more about the ammo relegated for machine gun use only?

It was mentioned in a lecture on the 303 in service at The Imperial War Museum in London at an HBSA meeting (Historical Breechloading Small Arms) that I attended many years ago.

[Brithunter]

Ahhh BrucB althoguh I have shot Brens when in the cadets thery were in 7.62x51 NATO. Our rifles were No4 Enfields in 303 still. Nitro cellulose cartridges were specified for Air Craft use I seem to recall. I bought a belted boc of ammo which has Ground use only stencilled on the side this was because it didn't meet the in air specs so it was put into a Vickers belt it was also marked AFV use only. I might still have the wood box will have to check as it may have been taken in the raid.

incidentally the New Zealand marked No1 Mk1 had the shoulder a bit further forwards than my other 303 rifles but again it didn't cause case head separations. When laid off and out of work I had to sell them to pay the rent about 20 years ago now.. The worst ammunition in 303 that I ever got was some South Africa in a Vickers belt. It goes Click............................................. . bang very noticeably indeed. Poor storage conditions perhaps before it was released for sale???

[dualsport]

Not a word about fire forming and over sized chambers? This is a killer of brass more so than any lack of proper headspace. IMHO. Considering the difficulty in obtaining reloadable brass for the .303 I size as little as possible, mainly with a Lee Collet die adjusted to barely size the neck. I fireform my brass for each gun the first time around.

[PAT303]

Dualsport is right,headspace is not the problem,oversized chambers are,we need to stop with the headspace rubbish.Enfields are cut with oversize chambers so they feed all makes of 303 ammunition,to fix this you can't shoot factory ammo in it,the cases are ruined if you do,the only way to do it is to run a single wrap of tape around the web of the case to center the rear and then neck the case up larger than 303 and then neck back down to get a false shoulder that is a crush fit when chambering,if you can't do that give the case an excessive amount of flare and seat the boolit so it's jammed hard into the rifling once chambered.Case head seperation is caused by the case expanding backwards towards the bolt,you need to have the case pushed hard against the bolt face so it expands forward into the chamber,if you do it once properly and neck size you will get long case life,I've got cases with more than 30 reloads thats are still going strong,case prep is vital with the Lee Enfield. Pat

[BruceB]

Do you people not realize that you're repeating what was said earlier in this thread?

[303Guy]

I've got cases with more than 30 reloads thats are still going strong,case prep is vital with the Lee Enfield. Pat

Yup. I think in terms of indefinite case life. I did have a few separations in my early days when I was still full length resizing and shooting dry cases in a dry chamber. Then my uncle who was a WWII armourer then gunsmith told me about leaving the case lube on the cases and the problems went away. No more case length trimming and no more head separations. I also never had to set the shoulder back because it simply never went tight in the chamber. I did however lose cases to the long grass. Long grass has a lot to answer for.

P.S. Leaving lube on the case does not increase bolt face thrust. Case head separation does (a bit).

[Brithunter]

I would not agree aboutt his:-

Leaving lube on the case does not increase bolt face thrust

In proofing the new Lee Enfields several cartridges were dipped in "Rangoon Oil" then fired as his increased the bolt thrust on the locking lugs. Chambers were reamed a certain measure short as this extra pressure peened the cutter marks on the lugs flat and smooth. Now I have to find which book this information is in as I cannot recall which one it is. The chambers were then wiped clean and the acceptance shots fired and the rifles cleaned due to the corrosive priming use.

[Mike H]

The Lee Enfield is a light rear locking action,they stretch on firing,overloading and over sizing does the damage.I doubt that is understood,I still think they should have some headspace clearance for easy loading.A round should be able to be chambered and the bolt closed easily without bashing it closed.
Mike.

[PAT303]

If your loading to the point were the action stretches your probably gone too far,in my opinion the action with both lugs bearing equally would not stretch at all with properly prepared ammunition and loaded within the pressure limits,I think 99% of cast loads would not stress the Lee Enfield action at all. Pat

[Mike H]

If your loading to the point were the action stretches your probably gone too far,in my opinion the action with both lugs bearing equally would not stretch at all with properly prepared ammunition and loaded within the pressure limits,I think 99% of cast loads would not stress the Lee Enfield action at all. Pat

I agree with that Pat,actually the bolt compresses,once you stretch the action body you have gone beyond any sensible load. When I was shooting Service Rifle,a few years ago and loading with jacketed bullets,case separations were not part of my act.
Not so long back I purchased a 313-215 mould off David at CBE and am looking forward to some more serious shooting with it in my No 4.At present I am using bullets from it sized well down to fit a .308.
Mike.

[303Guy]

The proofing loads were dipped in oil and chambered with the oil dripping. That does not qualify as 'light lubing'. However there was a time when it was recommended to oil machine gun ammo to overcome some problem but dirt sticking to the oily cases caused a greater problem so that directive was withdrawn. I don't remember where that was written though. Multigunner would know. I suspect the excess oil in the chamber causes high bolt face thrust not by floating the case but rather by hydraulic action forcing the case rearward, driven by radial pressure. It's also possible that the oil mist being forced into the combustion space behind the boolit may detonate in the oxygen rich environment that exists there. Anyway, light lubing is what you get if the case lube is wiped off or JPW is left on or the brass is polished or if the chamber is very smooth, i.e. polished. But if the chamber is rough then excessive case grip occurs which damages the brass as it stretches at the web instead over over the whole length of the case body.

Apparently, once the action body and bolt is loaded to the point of flexing, accuracy goes south. I've never loaded that high so I can't say if that is so. I have loaded fairly high with no change in accuracy but I did not like the 'pressure signs' on the case and backed off. In talking of cast boolit loads there should never be any pressure issues other than over stressing the boolit itself.

I do agree that a loaded cartridge should chamber freely with no bolt force required but I haven't found repeated loadings to have any effect. That might happen with high intensity cartridges but not the 303 Brit. Mind you, I never experienced it with my 223 but then I was using a slow powder for a middle of the road load. But then I also left the case lube on those cases.