more on Lee tumble lube

[454PB]

If I'm going to size them, I use something other than LLA as a sizing lube. I use the same stuff that I use as swaging and case sizing lube, which is boot waterproofing. This stuff works as well as Imperial Sizing Wax or Hornady Unique, but comes in a 3 ounce tub and costs $2. I smear a little on every fourth or fifth boolit, then size and tumble lube. It's much cleaner than using the LLA as a sizing lube.

I suspect the boot waterproofing is mostly lanolin, because it smells nice and even softens your skin. It wipes off both your hands and the boolits or brass easily, no water or solvents required. Since I've been using it, I've never dented a case nor had anything stick....even when swaging jacketed bullets.

[PatMarlin]

Yes, RD, I use mainly Lee dies. The problem comes with wax or Alox getting trapped in the hollow cavity in the end of the seating plug, filling it and pressing the boolit in progressively deeper in the cases as it builds up. It definitely won't flow around the boolit! It just has to be cleaned out. I unscrew the die and dig it out with a little screwdriver.

The buildup on the Factory Crimp Dies looks nasty, but affects nothing functionally.

That was my main problem with LLA. I kept getting inconsistent OAL's. Cleaning was not a problem just having to do it often. Probably using it a little to thick and too much like RD said. I bought some mica to try but never have as yet.

I really like my Lyman 45 lube sizers, but hey- I've got a bunch of LLA, and I won't hesitate to use it for an accurate firearm load. Just not for everything.

[mroliver77]

I used to really slather the boolits up good with LLA. It sometimes took a week for them to dry. "sigh". After being set straight about it I started thinning it and using a very thin coat. This works well but I hate trying to stand all the boolits up on wax paper. The boolits I had with gobs of the stuff on I added some mineral spirits and lwft set covered overnight. I then added new boolits and tumbled until I had the desired coating on all. I still cannot understand how tumble lubing is considered fast. Standing them all up is a pain for me. I usually managed to knock them over a couple times too. The Star sizer wades through piles of boolits in no time! There is a fellow at gunshow that sells cast bullets at a very resonable price. Willbird and I have tried them and get lots of leading. I asked what alloy he uses and "HARD" is all he can say. He also sizes .38 to .357 and .30 to .308 etc. Nice looking bullets too and very HARD!! Buy garsh do they lead.To use up the few K that I had I tumbled in LLA and it helped. A friend had his Security Six all leaded up and asked me how to clean it. I fitted My boollit in MY alloy with FWFL and fired a cylindr full. Barrel was sparkly clean! I told him it was the Felix lubes magical qualities. There are a couple aplications where I will try Ranch Dogs Dipping aplication. I thought mebbe after it is dry apply a coat of Johnson Paste wax to seal it with a harder coating. Or just dump it all in the Star............

[PatMarlin]

I haven't got to use my R-dog mold yet, but first off I'm going to lube them through my old lymans with either speed green, LBT blue soft, or Lar's.

Done that with great sucess on other tumble lube boolits.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill probaly try that myself but its kind of a pain on the star. Usually takes to passes to get all teh groves but i guess its still faster then one pass through a lyman.

I haven't got to use my R-dog mold yet, but first off I'm going to lube them through my old lymans with either speed green, LBT blue soft, or Lar's.

Done that with great sucess on other tumble lube boolits.

[Lead melter]

Well, I'll add another fly to the Alox.
I have found I get the best accuracy with LLA by using a slightly different method.

1. LLA comes in a 4 ounce bottle. I always keep an empty around, so I dump 1 ounce into the empty bottle and add 1 ounce mineral spirits to the 3 ounces LLA. I now have a very thin LLA with which to work.

3. Pour cast boolits into an old butter dish, add thinned LLA to this just to get a thin sheen of lube on the boolits, dump on waxed paper and allow to dry overnight.

3. Attach and seat gas checks if needed, add another light coat of LLA, dry overnight.

4. Add yet a third coat of LLA, then allow to dry. This results in a nice, even coat of LLA over all the boolits without too much gummy mess on the sizer or the seater.

5. And yes, I save the dried stuff for reuse just like Ranch Dog.

May not be the best way, but it works for me.

[Ranch Dog]

ranch dog i just ordered one of your molds for the first time and reading this i have a few questions. First i got the sizer too. Do you find that you usually get better accuracy with the ranch dog bullets sizing the bullet to true it up or unsized or is it just pot luck depending on the gun or are you just using the sizer to seat the gas check and spec out a sizer that doesnt size your bullets much.]. Second do i understand correctly that you lube then size and then just shoot them. Ive allways lubed sized then lubed again when using tumble lube. Is this a waste of time. I guess i allways did it becasuse i never had that good of luck with tumble lube and figured a little more would be better. Also i see you dip your bullets. Any advantage to that over shaking them in a bowl other then keeping the lube off then noses to keep the mess down. The only thing i tumble lube anymore is 38 special bullets and sure wouldnt want to hastle with dipping them. I shot just to many of them but i guess I could do it with the 4570s if theres any advantage to it.

I'm sorry that I missed this Lloyd, I've been spending this week shooting pressure trace data... 300 bullets out the barrel in the last two days! I will get back to your questions, but let me list my "process" again.

• I cut a new bottle of Alox by filling the airspace in the bottle with mineral spirits. I warm the Alox in hot water. I do use bulk Alox from Lar45 but thin it accordingly.
• Very, very light tumble lube. The bullets are just "tacky" with the Alox. If the bullets are "wet", add more bullets to your bowl.
• Set them out to dry on their base. Drying time varies but this light coat will set up in about an hour.
• Install the gas checks.
• Dip them, base first and deep enough to cover all the Micro-Bands.
• Set them out to dry on their base. Drying time on this coat will take about 2 to 4 hours depending on the temperature and humidity.
• Size and seat the gas checks with a Ranch Dog Sizer.

I usually complete all my molding, lubing and sizing in a day. I know that the lubesizer guys say tumble lubing takes too long but I disagree. I normally cast about 500 to 600 bullets at a time. The first lube step is done in less than thirty minutes and the second lube step takes about hour. Casting and installing the gas checks is what takes time and that is common to either method of lubing. I use the two drying periods to do other things. I don't know how it could be any easier.

If you are shooting a RD bullet out of a Marlin, the pass through the sizing die is simply to "true" up the bullet and seat the gas check. I cannot comment on other firearms and their bullet needs. Alloy and casting temperature will effect the final bullet diameter but the RD bullet should be at the target diameter after the pass through the die.

You should not have a mess, even on the bullet nose, if you follow the steps above. The tumble lube step should leave a film, not a coat. The dip is thick but it should never get too the crimp groove. The sizing die will clean it off the bullet. By following these steps I have never had Alox foul my bullet seating die. I collect a little bit in my Factory Crimp die but even that is a minuscule amount. I've loaded 400 bullets in the last three days and FCD doesn't have enough lube collected in it to lube one bullet. I have always wiped my loaded cases off, even prior to being a caster, to remove all the case lube or anything that might have been picked up in the loading process. I'm not sure what the big deal is in cleaning off a case even if you make a mess.

[Cayoot]

So Ranch Dog, are saying that you DON'T apply any alox AFTER sizing?

I thought that the sizing process removes most of the lube that is in position to be effective (on the driving bands as opposed to in the lube groves-because LLA does not migrate well out of the lube grooves.)

Wow! This is a radical departure from the way I was taught and have read about using LLA!

However, if this is the way that you do it and you get no leading....WOW!!!!

I'm gonna have to try changing my ways!

[Ricochet]

Michael, how are you holding your boolits to dip them? It's a little tricky with short ogives to hang onto them.

[hornetguy]

REAL men don't have long fingernails.....

[Ranch Dog]

REAL men don't have long fingernails.....

Good one! Real men have short ones and they don't care if the have Alox under them


Rico... I'm only working with my bullets and the Lee TL452-230-RF. That later bullet and my TLC432-265-RF has a very short nose, I use pliers, forceps, a "grabber", or any other handy tool that will grab the nose. I have a small Sears Robo-Grip plier that I like the best. In that they are spring loaded, the grab, dip and let-go is fast.

I got to get shooting, but here are some pictures for your consideration...


Let's start with the bullet. This is a my 300-grain 444 bullet that went through my lube process detailed above. It is a sample out of a bin of about 300. The wax build up on the nose is from the wax buildup at the entry to the sizing die (bottom). As you can see, the bullet body is pretty clean. I do not lube again, and seat it in the case just as it is. I pulled the seating stem out of my seating die and you can see the build up on it. This stem has seated at least 5000 TL bullets without being cleaned. I'm sure it has not be disassembled for at least 5 years. There is a little crud outside the contact area, but it will eventually dry up and fall off. The contact area (a rim just inside the outside edge) is bright simply because steel making contact with lead will displace the wax. It will flow. Honestly, I'm going to reassemble it just like it is as I need ammo now for my pressure trace testing. When I pulled this apart, I really thought it would have a lot more buildup. After I seat this bullet and in that it is going to get shot today, the nose will quickly be cleaning with a rag and mineral spirits. If it was going to storage, I'd leave it like it is.


Here is the Alox star on my Marlin 375 after shooting my TLC379-235-RF. This bullet has the least volume of wax of any of my designs... .03 CCs. By comparison, the TLC432-300-RF has .045 CCs. This is the star produced after some max load trace testing of the bullet... 2100 FPS at 54.5K PSI! I won't offer load data at that level but the Alox hung in there and the groups were outstanding.

[Lloyd Smale]

Lookiing at what your doing it seems that conventional lube sizing that bullet would give simular results if the lube was good. Looks like it has plenty of lube capasity. Basicaly its the same results youd get if you pan lubed and sized it. have you actually done testing to see if the first thin coat is helping at all?

[Ranch Dog]

Lloyd...

I think of the first coat doing two things:

• It provides lube on the bullet at the area that will contact the sizing die.
• As the second coat applied through the dip, I believe it helps fill the the lube grooves. This material is very found of itself.

I've tried dipping the first coat and it just doesn't fill the grooves any better than the light tumble. It uses a much wax as the last coat but you still must apply that second coat.

[Ricochet]

Thanks, Michael!

I'm going to have to look around for something to grab the boolits with without damaging them.

(And of course I wasn't admitting to having a short ogive myself!)

[Lloyd Smale]

that second coat grabbing on to the first makes sense. Im going to have to give serious time to experimenting with that bullet when it gets here. It would be neat to actually run it like you recomend and run it sized and lubed in a star using my own lube to see which works better. Ive never been a fan on tumble lubing but may with your method and fillng out the lube groves it would take the velocitys that everyone preaches they get that i never came close to. Cant see why it wouldnt. it looks like your design carrys enough lube and straight allow should do at least as well as something like nra fourmula that is nothing but alox cut with beeswax. I also made up a batch of felix lube that i replaced half the beeswax with the alox that used for tumble lube and a couple more variations of felix made with alox. . What might me a good experiment is to tumble lube a light coat of normal tumble wax and then pan lube them in that expermentle wax. My thoughts with that lube was to try to come up with a hard lube that would actually lube and hold up a little better in a long rifle barrel then normal 5050 does. another thought i had was it may possibly work as a conventional harder lube and also still be able to be used as a tumble lube by heating it or thinning it with mineral spirits. With all the back problems ive had lately i havent been able to even shoot let alone test though but hopefully they will get me fixed up soon and i can get back on it.

[Ranch Dog]

Lloyd...

I hope you get to feeling better and can get out and do some of this shooting!

For the record, the Marlins I have been shooting these bullets in have had nothing special done to them, they are just as they were purchased. I only have one lapped rifle, my 444P, and I shoot it very little. I just make sure the copper is removed from the barrel and have at it.

[Ranch Dog]

Hey fellows,

My trial molds for the TLC359-190-RF arrived so I was anxious to cast! I thought I would also go ahead and time the various steps to see just how long the process takes. Not that any of this is a timed event , as I normally won't even start casting if I'm pressed for time as I make too many mistakes.

Again here are my steps in applying the Alox:

• First, extremely light tumbled coat of Alox
• Install the gas checks
• Alox dip coat
• Pass through sizer

I had cast 425 bullets, here is what each operation took:

• #1 :31
• #2 1:10
• #3 :49
• #4 :39

Installing the gas checks is common to any application (:18/100) so here is what the time looks like per/100 bullets (times above divided by 4):

• #1 :08
• #3 :12
• #4 :10

For any comparison purposes, the total time involved in appling two coats of Alox and seating the checks while sizing the bullets with the Lee sizer would be about :30/100. Again, this wasn't a horse race. I enjoy this work or I would be out buying jacketed bullets. Your times might vary. I took several phone calls, talked with my wife, petted the dog, etc. while timing these events.

The first coat dried two hours and the second coat 4 hours. I completed my entire casting event in one day (I didn't time the casting). I hope you don't mind some pictures...


First coat has been squirted on the bullet. Notice that it is so little you can barely see it.


This picture is to emphasis just how little Alox should be used on that first coat. The wax residue in the middle of the sheet of paper is where I've dumped 425 bullets in 31 minutes. That spot is tacky, not wet. I've used very little Alox at this point.


For the second and final coat, I use Alox that I purchased through Lar45's LsStuff who is a member here on Cast Boolits. I use it because of the volume of Alox I consume. It is no different than that purchased through Lee Precision. The 32 oz. bottle is heating up in a sink of hot water to make it flow better.


The small "Jell-O" bowl I use for the dip.


The bullets have been dipped and now are sitting on their base. This bullet has enough nose that I could grap it with my fingers; no tools needed. The Alox is flowing off the bullets onto the paper but it will be recovered.


It has taken me 49 minutes to dip all 425 bullets. I have picked the first dipped bullet up for this photo. The Alox has set up and formed it's coat around the base of the bullet. The bullet base is actually pretty free of Alox from resting on the paper.


I've gone ahead and moved the bullets out of the rows so that I can recover the Alox. The bullets will dry four hours in this position. Notice the excess Alox on the paper.

[Ranch Dog]

I've started to recover the Alox and let it flow back into the bottle. I use a putty knife to scrape up the row of excess Alox.


Notice the paper. Every bit of the excess Alox has been recovered. I used two Jello-O cups (4 oz. ea.) of Alox to dip these 425 bullets and returned one cup!

[Cayoot]

This is great RD!!! I'm learning lots (like every time I come on this board).

About recapturing the Alox, do you reconstitute it some how or just throw the dried remnents back into the container with the (still liquid) stuff?

[jeff223]

OUTSTANDING Michael
im going to start lubing up my 35 caliber Ranch Dog boolits just like what you showed in the pictures.i never knew you could reclaim the alox on the paper

i bet your going to like those 35s Michael,they are wonderful shooting boolits.i wont waste my time or lead on any other design boolit.RANCH DOGS are #1

awsome pistures