It depends on the rifle and the handgun, what bullets are used and the intended purpose. Humans have been called "large aggressive animals".. if you mean griz, say so.. but I don't think you'll come across one down at the quickie mart in Ohio.Originally Posted by Southern Shooter
No matter what is used, you still have to hit it right even if it's a bunny rabbit.
Sent from my computer using my fingers.
I see in the news today that a lady was mauled in her driveway in a residential area in florida by a black bear. You just never know when or where you will need that bear defense gun.
We tell Yankees time and time again, "Don't feed the bears!"
Do they listen? No. Still gloating from Gettysburg has it's downside.
I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.
From what I've read about professional hunters and dangerous game, it seems that bullet placement and penetration are far more important than some magic bullet that may or may not work. Stopping the charge is different than killing the animal. Yes, the animal is going to die if it bleeds out BUT what good is that if it mauls you to death before it dies? I would think in that extreme circumstance it would be better to destroy the beast's ability to harm you as quickly as possible. I'm thinking a CNS hit by a projectile that will always have the mass and energy to penetrate far enough to always damage something vital. Something that is well protected by fur, hide, muscle and bone. A handgun in that situation is a last ditch effort to save your life.
In "African Rifles & Cartridges" by John Taylor, he writes about The Revolver or Pistol as Auxiliary in Chapter 11. Taylor addresses "metal-covered bullets" (I assume full metal jackets). This is coming from someone that has been there, done that and lived to tell about it. It appears, at least to me, that he believed bullet penetration was far more important than bullet expansion.
I have no personal knowledge of this issue but it makes sense to bet your life on something that can always reach deep enough to damage something vital.
What John Taylor had in mind is different than what most of us want. He carried the pistol as a last resort for if a cat (lion or leopard) had him down and was ready to or already had started chewing on him. He hunted with a long gun and the pistol was a backup.
Rule 303
Woods/Mountain Defense: Handgun Boolits Are No Rifle Boolits
/\I thought that was what we were talking about
Last edited by Petrol & Powder; 04-17-2014 at 08:08 AM.
nope, no difference in what we want or need today in a self defense pistol against large aggressive beasties.
penetration and mass in a packin and shootin friendly package.
accuracy is great for sniping at undisturbed critters, when events start unfolding in your direction begin to find your personal space becoming said critters space it dont need to be so accurate as familiar, reliable, accessible, controllable , and able to drive solid heavy chunks of metal through bone.
lots of bone.
meat and/or vitals are meaningless and are simply what you have to get through to reach bone.
300savage...yes...I like that description.
Me too!
Fun thread.
Last fall while deer hunting at a relatives, there were reports of several black bear from neighbors.
Sure glad for the 44 with 305 grain cast over a healthy dose of h-110 those days.
They may not be too big, but I sure wouldn't wanna tangle with one unarmed.
Plus the reports of giant chickens, whew, those things are vicious.
Dan
Here's a good video clip to give you an idea of how fast Yogi can move when he really means it....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuYs...ature=youtu.be
I'll be a nice to you as you'll let me be, or as mean as you make me be.
Polite society started dying the day it was no longer necessary for rude men to physically defend themselves from the consquences of their actions or words.
"We tell Yankees time and time again, "Don't feed the bears!"
Do they listen? No. Still gloating from Gettysburg has it's downside."
I keep telling easterners don't pet the BUFFALO!!!!!
And that is why when I bow hunt I carry the one on the right, left is a 280 Remington.
Man ain't that the truth! If you head straight south from Thompson lakes I live in the mountains between there and Hwy 200. I get nuisance bears, grizzly and blackies in my yard. Usually it is in fall and the woods is dry and they want a drink from my creek and a wallow in the cold mud of the seeps down there. So we have them in close proximity to us 2 to 3 times a year for sure. Probably more that we don't know about and they just run off before we are aware of them, especially when hunting. Here are my rambling thoughts on bears and our defense against them.
I carry a double action 454 when I hunt if I am not hunting with the 45-70. I practice shooting weekly(ok I'll be honest I pretty much shoot daily, it's rare if I go a day without shooting) with the 454. I tell the wife it is so I am in practice in case I get attacked by a bear. Really (and she knows it), it is because I just love to shoot and reload and shoot some more.
Most people get a babysitter and go on date to the movies and dinner. The wife and I drop the kids off with the sitter and go home and have a range day where we don't have to have one of us watch the kids while the other one is outside shooting. It's our version of together time....don't judge
Anyway I served in enough combat in the Marines to know I can hit what I aim at under any amount of stress so I am not super worried about myself. I do worry about the kids though, both when we are hunting, fishing, berry picking etc. and when at home so I do carry and if it isn't on me, it is in easy reach. My kids like to play outside and I'm not going to keep them inside because there is a one in a million chance a bear might do more than run away when it sees us.
The beagle has more bark than brains so we get plenty of warning when a bear is around and both the wife and I have a loaded gun nearby when we are inside and the kids are outside (it is a 45-70 guide gun...pre-remlin). We don't live like we live in a combat zone but the gun is loaded and ready should either of us need to grab it and when I am outside I carry my 454 anyway so I can "test" new loads. About the only time I don't carry is when I am cutting wood with a chainsaw on the property. Maybe I should?
Is it enough? I hope so but I don't know that it is ever "enough" where your kids are concerned. We do the best we can and I am reasonably certain that any of our 454s and or the 45-70 is "enough". I am also hoping that we all go through our entire lives without ever having to find out. So far the bears have always run when they see us out and about. I hope it is always this way, but should it not be I feel we are as prepared as we can be without living a life of paranoia.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine ownself be true
To quote Bill Jordan in "No Second Place Winner", "Learn to take your time, Fast"
Cornbread,
Sounds to me like you've mostly got it covered.
Although I don't understand why you're not armed when chainsawing? Seems like as good a time as any to me. And it's not like you're going to get any warning of trouble with your hearing. Just a thought.
Welcome to the forum.
Cat
Cogito, ergo armatum sum.
(I think, therefore I'm armed.)
It's mostly because the kevlar chaps I wear when I cut trees are rather bulky and if I add a gun to it I have to cinch my belt really tight or my trousers start to fall off my butt
Thanks for the welcome. I'm liking it here a lot. Lot of knowledge about boolit casting and reloading in this place.
Neither a borrower nor a lender be;
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
This above all: to thine ownself be true
Anybody chainsawing is armed, think about it. lol
That said, I have gotten to the point that suspenders work for me.
I have heard of loggers in the south that have deer come in to eat fresh leaves from the fallen trees. We get no deer or elk wanting to eat pine needles in MT.
[The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze
They don't eat the needles but they do come in and eat the moss that grows in the tree. I have had them do this in early spring when their starving due to the still deep snow.
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