NOE 44 cal tri-wt wad-cutter

[RedHawk357Mag]

I have looked around a bit for any postings on this bullet and can't seem to find any solid info on starting loads with it. I haven't had a chance to cast any bullets yet with this mold since the delivery of the GB but I intend to change that pretty soon I would be interested in knowing where most folks are starting with powder and where folks are crimping this bullet. I was planning on seating it to the top grease/crimp ring but by my SWAG puts the bullet sitting .510" inside the case. Most of my other cast bullets are usually around .350"-.383" inside the case. I was also planning on getting a modified M die spade machined by Buckshot to expand the brass to take this monster. Thanks for any info you might be able to provide whether actual experience or theory on how to proceed with pressure/seating depth of this cast bullet.

[RedHawk357Mag]

Found this on the Firing Line Site it was contributed by a member there that is called Uncle Mike.
"Seated flush with the case mouth, the DEWC's seating depth (how much bullet is inside the case) is much greater than an LSWC's. That leaves much less space for powder to start burning in, so it raises the pressure of any given charge weight. In other words, loads safe with the SWC will not be safe with the DEWC seated flush with the case mouth.

This is part of an on-going problem with load modern load manuals. Long ago they would list seating depth instead of COL. That got beyond most people's ability to do simple arithmetic, so they started listing COL. The problem, assuming your bullets are not seated out so far they touch the lands of the rifling (impossible in a revolver) is that seating depth is what matters to pressure for a given bullet weight. As the manuals are organized now, they make it appear that matching bullet weight is all that determines pressure for a given powder charge.

It's not!

To get the exact same chamber pressure from a given powder charge, the following bullet characteristics need to match:

Projectile weight
Projectile construction (thick jacketed, thin jacketed, lead, solid, saboted, etc.)
Projectile length
Projectile bearing surface length
Projectile seating depth
Projectile diameter
Projectile lubrication, where applicable

It's more than most of us want to deal with, so we normally just reduce charges 10% to get starting loads. In the case of the wadcutter seated, flush, though, it isn't enough because the case volume change under the bullet is so great.

When you calculate the effect of wadcutter seating depth on usable case capacity under the bullet, you'll find the 158 grain LSWC 0.69" long seated to 1.590" COL has room under to hold about 16 grains of water in a .357 Mag case, while a 148 grain LDEWC 0.58" long flush-seated leaves only about 11 grains of water volume under it. The rule of squares is only for changes of 10% or less, and in this larger span says charges would be reduced about 17%. Running some maximum pressure loads through QuickLOAD, I find that 20% reduction is closer. As a practical matter, allowing for powder differences, I would reduce maximum loads given for the LSWC by 25% for the LDEWC and work up, watching for pressure signs."...

[rintinglen]

I have that mold and use it extensively in 44 Special. What I did was look at the ratio between the loads suggested for 38 special 148 WC boolits versus those for the 158 grain RN and then used that formula to calculate from the data listed for the 429-383 start loads. As I recall it came out to a tad under .9, so i ended up using 3.8 grains of RED Dot or Bullseye, or 5.0 grains of Unique as start loads. I ended up going higher with the Red Dot, until I got to 4.0 grains then stopped. That Red Dot load is my favorite with this boolit--my Ruger flat Top dotes on it, though the Unique loads are almost as accurate. Now, I didn't struggle with the math and I crimp in the top crimp ring, for an OAL of 1.27. Here are a couple next to a pair of 429-383 boolits.

[RedHawk357Mag]

Thanks for weighing in. I opened my 2014 Alliant Powder Catalog and looked at charges for those powders. I figured it was probably prudent to START with 44 Special loads first. (loading in 44 Mag cases and shooting in 44 Mags guns). Using the 240 gr LSWC data Bullseye MAX is 5.2grs. Minus the 25% Uncle Nick mentions brings it to 3.9grs for a start. Unique is 6.3 gr MAX for same bullet, minus 25% comes to 4.7 grs for a start. There wasn't a load for RedDot for 44 Special in 240 grs

In 44 Magnum data RedDot was listed as 6.5 grs MAX for a 240 grn LSWC bullet, minus 25 percent comes to 4.8 grs for a start. Again that being a 44 Mag data.

Thanks for the input have a great day. BTW planning on crimping on the same place which should put me around 1.375"

[rintinglen]

I suspect the minor differences between mine and Uncle mike's results stem from the fact that I went of start loads, not max loads, and I used Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook for my source data to compute my ratio. The Red Dot data comes from Speer for their swaged 240 SWC.
BTW, 5.0 grains Red Dot is the bee's-knees for the 429-421 in 44 Special. It is a max load, but in an N-frame S&W very tolerable and super accurate. When I get around to replacing my chronograph, I want to run a few of these through it to see what they will do. I left the battery in my Chronograph winter before last and last summer when I went to try it it died and I haven't got around to replacing it.

[RedHawk357Mag]

Just figured out this bullet is a copy of the Hensley Gibbs #107A. Not sure why I am just figuring this out. And what I am guessing is the #107A,B,C is a .430" version of the Hensley Gibbs #50. Interesting. Take a gander at this thread of somebody talking about the H&Gs version. He loaded a couple kind of hot!http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...Full-Wadcutter

[rintinglen]

Not really a line for line copy, but the same sort of thing. IIRC, the NOE came in 110 grain, 155 grain and 230 grain weights--I only wish they had made one in the 180-200 weight range. I have the 230 grain in a 5 cavity and the 110 grain in a two cavity. The latter makes for a nifty multi-ball load.

[BruMatt]

I just cast the same bullet in 45 caliber from a new NOE mold. I've been trying to work out a few starting loads with BE, Unique and 231. Good information here.

[RedHawk357Mag]

BruMatt I think the 25% reduction figure is a good starting place. In the 357 Magnum version I found data for it that falls fairly in line for it. Good luck and let us know what you come up with.

[BruMatt]

I started with the bullet set to the first crimp groove using 6.0, 6.3, 6.5 and 6.7 gr of Unique in my 625 Mountain Gun and a Beretta Stampede. No problems or sign of strain with any of the loads. 6.3 grains proved very accurate in the 625. 6.7 grains felt like a standard service load although I don't have a chronograph. There might be a little more room at the top but I was pretty happy with this range. As always, start at the bottom and work up carefully. Results vary.

[rintinglen]

Brumatt, That sounds like a pretty good load for a 45 Colt Wadcutter.

[BruMatt]

Unique is an easy powder to work with. I wish I could find one of the 44 caliber molds as I really like the boolit.