Woods/Mountain Defense: Handgun Boolits Are No Rifle Boolits

[Southern Shooter]

REFOCUSE:

In creating a load, what should be the goal of a handgun in self-defense against large aggressive animals?

--Penetration in hopes of striking something of importance in the oncoming animal and quickly shutting it down?

--A hole large enough to allow massive bleeding?

--Both?

--What is realistic to achieve?

[cwheel]

Thinking the other aspect not mentioned is that you have it with you. I spend lots of time in my area prospecting. A large handgun in a chest rig would be one of the first things removed and set aside as the work starts. I pack a 1911 with 230gr. hollow points that goes unnoticed for the most part. Not the best thing you could choose, but packing it while working is better than having something larger back in the truck.
Chris

[Bullshop]

Some of both has to be the answer. A deep penetrating 22 fmj is not something I would count on so penetration alone is not enough.
A large hole is what you want in conjunction with total penetration. Large hole from expanding bullets or bullets with very large % meplate may mean less penetration. Compromise both until you have the right mix.
What I want is TOTAL penetration even if it has to break heavy bone and to do that you need momentum which means a heavy for caliber bullet.

[Southern Shooter]

Bullshop,
I have thought a lot about your caibou incident and another one...I think you shot an oncoming moose with a Sharps. Boolit weight seemed to be more of a factor than velocity. For a while I was shooting a .45 caliber 360 grain boolit with a .37 meplate. 950 FPS was the upper end of controllability when shooting quickly. Not very fast, but, I felt good about the weight to get enough penetration. At this point in time, I am working on a load for the 315 grain boolit I mentioned in an earlier post. Just trying to find a healthier blend of weight and velocity to achieve the needed penetration in a defensive situation.

cwheel,
I guess we have to look at the activities that each of us personally are engaging in. I could see where your means of carry would be different than mine. But, we both agree on the need to have something with us all of the time.

[1bluehorse]

YUP! Even in the wilds of Wyoming, your chances of running into trouble from 2 legged varmints are far greater than the 4 legged ones.

I enjoy how these types of threads always turn into "Grizzly stopping" conversations....grizzlys have been on the endangered species list in the US since about 1975 and the "estimated" number in the lower 48 is 8 to 1200 hundred animals..mostly in the Yellowstone and Glacier area....there are smaller populations in the Bob Marshall Wilderness area of Montana...also in the early 2000's there was "talk" of reintroduction in the Bitterroot-Selway area......the only "known" populations are in four states, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho and eastern Washington.....however there have been reports in the last couple years of a few sightings in the northern Cascades of Washington that are believed to have come down from Canada....pretty rare though....so even if the "numbers" are off a bit and there are actually as many as 2000 grizzly in the Lower 48 states spread out amongst 4 states, the opportunity/risk of ever running into one is probably way less than being attacked by your neighbors dog....expecially if you're not in one of those areas of those 4 states..

[300savage]

bullshop and dan both know what they are talking about. if a critter is going to run away from you then you want to bleed em.
if they are running at you then you better be breaking something or else they are going to be bleeding all over you while they are ripping you a new one.

[DougGuy]

--Penetration in hopes of striking something of importance in the oncoming animal and quickly shutting it down?

--A hole large enough to allow massive bleeding?

--Both?

--What is realistic to achieve?

What is realistic is that you SURVIVE whatever encounter you are subjected to.

I guess we have to look at the activities that each of us personally are engaging in.

^^This has a LOT to do with how much gun you bring with you. Geographical location, type and size of animals that may pose a threat, how far you are from help if it is needed, all of the variables affect the choices you would want to make.

Ok, back to the Q.. For every barrel length there is a point at which velocity begins to fall off due to projectile weight increasing. The .44 Magnum is probably going to edge out the .45 Colt in penetration because of less frontal area, and we are talking heavy for caliber boolits in both guns, 310gr+ in weight. They say 340gr is about the turning point for the .45 Colt, and the .44 in my experience is about 310gr. After that it starts getting more like a Mack truck than a race car.

You definitely want penetration to vitals. How much blood the animal loses out of it's entry/exit wounds is secondary to how fast can you stop oxygenated blood from reaching it's brain. That is what will shut the body down and stop the threat. This means tearing all the plumbing off the top of the heart, shooting a golfball sized hole through the mass of the heart, turning the lungs into foam, all these will stop blood flow to the brain, and if you can't get a head/neck shot to immediately stop the charge/threat, you can only hope the loss of blood to the brain occurs rapidly enough for you to remain alive.

I think it's realistic to try for a 300gr boolit @ 1200f/s out of a short barrel (6" or less) handgun, and realistic to practice practice practice with it. If you can draw and aim before you really take time to think about it, to do it out of reflex, it may buy you enough time for one more shot, and that may be the shot that decides the outcome.

If you can handle the Super Redhawk with a 4" barrel, then you have even more advantage. I personally think I could handle a .44 better and faster than a .454 but that's just speculation since I don't own the SRH.

[Bullshop]

Griz might be rare but thats because I did my share in reducing their numbers, HA!
Black bears on the other hand are in most states and I have seen and killed them in the 600 lb range. A man once told me and I believe he was right that the average black bear is the same size as the average man, about 200 lbs. There are however many above average just like men. There are plenty of men between 300 and 400 lbs and so with black bears.
Like Elmer said, " Bring enough gun " I think he meant bring enough gun for the above average and not just the average.

[starmac]

Grizzlys are rare, I would aggree with that. Even up here the percentages of your chance of having a grizzly attack is rare, but it only takes one to become a rare statistic.

We had a seasoned guy killed by a black bear locally last year, it doesn't have to be a grizzly.

[DanWalker]

We have LOTS of Grizz in WY. One of the places we hunt is SE of Yellowstone. They relocate the problem bears from Yellowstone into the area where we hunt. It is rare to go up there and NOT see a Grizz. It is an exceptionally dense population and an extremely unnatural situation for those bears. They are in fierce competition for food and breeding rights. Please understand, each situation and area is different. I will admit that I hardly EVER go into that country armed with just my sixgun. The 870 gets the nod most of the time when we are prospecting or riding horses or hiking or camping.

[Southern Shooter]

I truly do look at this no differently than I do any form of insurance policy. We invest in the policy with hopes it never is needed. But, if that very expensive claim ever does occur in our lives...well, we sure are glad it was there to prevent absolute financial ruin.

[kootne]

Where I live the griz don't bother folks much so maybe my thoughts aren't valid but since I logged in I'll spout anyway. I think if you are packing a pistol that you have to draw to stop a charging bear your odds are only just slightly better than being plumb naked. They just move so fast. And in those situations they are usually aready moving at warp speed and commited by the time they are spotted. I've thought about the ones that have run the other way (so far, all of them) and if they had ran at me instead of away, what would happen? Most likely I'd be a bear turd cause not only do you have to get the gun out and a shot off, now you have to imobilize him before you become one with the bear. My theory if I take a pistol is that it is for peeling the bear off the guy with me. If I thought I needed a gun to stop the bear trying to get me, which is most likely going to happen packing out meat. I think I would pack my 9.3x57 Husky without a scope or a sling. Then it would always be in my hands where it will needed and not tucked in a holster or slung over my back. But if I do get et by a bear, (or tromped by a horse, or fell off a cliff) I've enjoyed quite a ride through life. Odds are a lot better I'll fade out in a bed sometime. Just my thoughts, others may disagree. Grateful to live in a country where we can all have our own opinion.
kootne

[Bullshop]

I have a 20" barrel 1903 Springfield in 375 Whelen with receiver sights. I shoot a 375gn boolit with 65% meplate at a tad over 2200 fps. Its about perfect for this sort of thing. Penetration with this boolit quench hardened is just flat unreal!

[1bluehorse]

I truly do look at this no differently than I do any form of insurance policy. We invest in the policy with hopes it never is needed. But, if that very expensive claim ever does occur in our lives...well, we sure are glad it was there to prevent absolute financial ruin.

If that be the case, we should all carry a 460 Weatherby rifle and a 500 S&W handgun....must be "prepared" for the "worst case" scenario ....remember this one, there ain't nothing a man can't fix with a 50 dollar bill and a 30-06.....might want to make that a hundred today account of inflation....out my back gate is over 70,000 acres of private timberland, nothing North of me for over 50 miles but "country"....no homes, no people live there....there's black bear, (I doubt any 600 pounders though) cougar, a bazillion coyotes and deer, and it wouldn't surprise to find a wolf or two...nothing that a factory 30-30 or a "normally" (240-250gr solid) loaded 44mag 45 colt around 1000 to 1200fps wouldn't handle nicely....probably the most dangerous thing I'll run into up there is some young range bull that wasn't brought in last year....do you all think a Ruger Bisley in 45 colt loaded up with a 325gr. hard cast with a 73% meplat loaded to 1350 would handle that or do I need a bigger gun.....

[Bullshop]

1bluehorse
Your good to go with that!

[Southern Shooter]

Originally Posted by Bullshop:
After the experience with the caribou mentioned earlier I felt there was a practical limit to what is needed and going beyond that in boolit weight and velocity may become more of a detriment.
If I were to add to my first post it would be in performance parameters and for myself set that at about 250 to 300 gn boolit weight at 1000 to 1300 fps being adequate but wouldn't pair the lighter weight with the lower velocity. Everyone gets to set their own parameters so if mine don't seem to fit use what does fit.

It seems that a lot of opinions are being rendered, here...founded, unfounded, polite, impolite, helpful, unhelpful. At times it seems like those of us wishing to carry something more than a stick or a can of bear mace but less than a high-powered rifle are shamed. I am just trying to find that "practical limit" Bullshop mentioned...that middle-of-the-road option which will give a person even the slightest of increase in being able to safely enjoy remote outdoor activities. I am banking on NOT running into any trouble. But, if I do, I would like a fighting chance to, in some small fashion, tip the balance in my favor.

P.S.

Originally Posted by 1bluehorse:
If that be the case, we should all carry a 460 Weatherby rifle and a 500 S&W handgun....must be "prepared" for the "worst case" scenario

Even in terms of insurance policies we generally select based on a practical and balanced limit. Most of us can not afford the best insurance. We pick that which "fits" our needs as best as we can afford then go live our lives.

[300savage]

well then just pick something that will dig deep enough to break up his running gear or get to his CNS to flip its switch off.
i would think something on the lines of hardcast 200 grn going 1200 too 1300 fps as a minimum. or 250 to 300 going 1000/1100 again as a minimum for a heavy.
and forget about the vitals, you dont need to kill em, you first need to stop them .
then kill em.

[Bullshop]

Southern Shooter
It wouldn't be my first choice but I would not feel at all helpless for the purpose mentioned with my Ruger 357 mag loaded with either the RCBS 200gn FNGC or the old Lyman 220 gn SWC-GC.
Either of those boolits loaded to top end for the Ruger will penetrate well and have enough momentum to break bone and continue on.
I am saying Ruger because they are strong and have enough cylinder length for an OAL that allows a stiff powder charge.
I have a Ruger Bisley 7.5" that shoots the 200gn RCBS very well at very impressive velocity. A good hit with a 357 so loaded will get the job done. A bad hit with a heavily loaded 454 Casull or any other wont.
I agree with 300savage, stop them then kill them.
On the bear incident mentioned when the bear was steeling my sandwich I fired 4 shots from a Ruger Red Hawk 44 mag. The range was less than 20 feet and the first shot was in the mouth and out the back of the head. I am pretty sure that killed him but it was on a very steep hillside and the bear went up and over backwards and kept rolling down the hill. Not mentally but instinctively I followed with the front sight and fired three more shots double action until the bear stopped rolling when it hit a tree I had just felled. No further shots were needed.

[reddoggm]

Those Serbu shotguns look pretty cool!! I'd like to have one if it weren't such a hassle.

Hickok seemed to have a little trouble with the bolt on the Remington I believe it was but seemed to like the Mossberg I saw that video a while back and thought that would be a cool home defense gun ---BUT----My poor walls would be a real big mess Think I,ll stick to the .40 carbine lol
DOGG!!!

[NVScouter]

Well since I hunt in griz country I think about them. I don't want to be the guy last year who got hit face ripped off 4 miles from my place. Yeah 4 miles. He tried to fight off a griz with a shovel while irrigating.