Consistent Crimp Handle

[PatMarlin]

I don't mean to be argumentative, but it's hard for my brain to understand how it couldn't measure the same forces used with the press handle. Now my brain is not the sharpest tool in the box, granted...

With his adaptor, it's just like putting a torque wrench on a nut of the axis of the handle base.

[PatMarlin]

I personally think that this is a pointless device. Here's my reasons why.

If you set up your crimping die so that the press cams over center at the end of the travel, (which is what you should be doing anyway) it will insure that the case is going into the die the same amount everytime. In other words you are in essence setting up a mechanical stop. The case goes in to the die until the press "cams over center" after which the case actually comes back out a little. IN other words the motion of the press toggle links are thru a "radiused path" and the high point of that path is where the maximum travel of the press' ram is achieved. It is also where the press achieves it's maximum amount of force when sizing a case.



Randy

Yes but Randy, what if you don't want the same amount of pressure every time? The wrench will let you select the sweet spot pressure for a particular load.

Mind you folks, Randy invented the CNC machines I run in my shop, so he's a few levels above me in pay grade for sure...

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's the deal; Once the press handle goes over center the cartridge is coming back out of the die. When you hit the lower stop before the torque wrench lets off, you are past the point where all the work has been done to the case, and the tool is pointless.

I order to get this thing to work you would have to have your die adjusted down so that the torque wrench was letting off long before the handle cams over center, in which case you would rely on the accuracy of the torque wrench repeating it's let off to control the process.

This "could" benefit you if your cases were not consistently trimmed to length or there was significant variance in case wall thickness at the necks. In that case using the torque wrench would in fact produce a consistent crimp. But so would sorting your cases, and sorting your cases is much cheaper. I guess this could be of use for loading volumes of cases for shooting in a Garand or M14 for competition.

The problem arises when you don't stop pushing down on the torque wrench after it lets off. Any of you who have used a torque wrench when assembling an engine or other place where consistency of bolt torque actually matters, would have noticed that you can continue applying torque "After the tool lets off." It is a misuse of the tool, but it can be done, and this scenario would completely defeat the purpose of the tool in the first place.

When you set up a sizing die, it is standard practice to run the ram up until the shell holder contacts the bottom of the die and then add a little more so that you can feel the press handle "cam over center." This insures that the cartridge case has been driven as far into the die as possible which generally insures that the shoulder of the case has been set back enough so that the loaded cartridge will chamber. It also acts as a mechanical stop insuring that the case isn't driven into the die "Too far."

Similarly,,, When you set up your crimp die, the crimp needs to be set so that when the press cams over, the die yields the desired amount of crimp every time. You are essentially setting a mechanical stop. It doesn't matter how hard you push on the handle, once it contacts the stop you are done, and this setting will repeat every single time unless something moves. Then the only variations you will get in the crimp will be caused by case length or case wall thickness because the press is doing the same thing everytime..

You can control all of this with case preparation.

If you feel that this tool can benefit you then by all means use it. However this is a case where you need to 'understand all you know about the subject." Only then can you actually extract the benefit from this tool that you paid for. I'm sure they come with really good instructions, so reading over and over until you completely understand them might be a good place to start.

Randy

[PatMarlin]

I don't totally agree Randy, but that's OK, and I appreciate your input.

I think I fully understand the reloading process including cam over. I don't necessarily agree with all your comments on standard settings and use of dies, but I'm here to get opinions, and so far no one's commented on using the product.

[PatMarlin]

I sent an invite to Scott, the manufacturer to chime in here and give us more insight on his product.

Hopefully, he'll jump in sometime.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Pat: Call the company and ask them how many they've sold. They have been advertising in "Handloader Magazine" for several years, so you'd think if it was that great an idea that they would have sold a couple of thousand any way?

Randy

[PatMarlin]

I think we posted at the same time Randy, and hopefully he'll chime in.

I have always welcomed these discussions on my products as it gave me an opportunity to explain how they work.

Speaking of work, I'm in the shop hard at it. I stop and take a short breather by posting. All machines are running great and on spec. Life is good today.

[mdi]

A normal torque wrench measures how much "twist" is applied to a nut or bolt, or sumpin". The "twist" is being applied at a right angle to the handle. This "crimp measurement tool" is replacing the handle of the press (at least that is what the video shows) and applies a linear force, as a lever, on the press, but no "twist". That's all, I was just wondering how a tool designed to measure "twist" was adapted to a "leverage" pull measurement...

I'm done...

[PatMarlin]

You're askin' me..? ..

Hey I just want to get rich quick and get to the range. I want to put Checkmaker dies on Shark Tank and QVC, and live happily after ever...

Come on guys...

I don't want this thread to be so damn serious and no fun like so many threads have become these days. I don't mean any offense to anyone. I don't like to get into arguments.

[PatMarlin]

I would really like to hook up with Lori on Shark Tank, but you didn't hear that from me in case my girl asks.

[PatMarlin]

If you look at your handle movement on most presses- yes it's not a concentric twist at the top motion of the handle, but the linkage pivot point below, and the ram linkage pivot point does twist without lateral movement.

I just want to improve my cast shooting scores so I can beat Curmudgeon Bill at NCBS this year with my rifle...

[seanhagerty]

... and so far no one's commented on using the product.

I have used it. I think it has made a difference in the accuracy of my loads I use the CC on. I particularly use it on my Precision AR loads. When I did my OCW load development, I found the best charge weight, then instead of varying OAL, I adjusted the crimp in 5 ft-lb increments. I can generally find one increment that will shoot significant smaller groups than the others by using this tool.

The way this works is, you adjust your lee factory crimp die significantly lower than normal so your press does not cam over (as earlier described). When you raise the round, you do not use the regular handle, you use the torque wrench. Set it to what ever ft-lb setting you desire, then raise the round until the wrench clicks over, indicating you have met the amount of force needed for the setting. Lower the round, and thats it.

I agree, one could find a torque wrench cheaper, and fashion an adapter. As I have said, this is another tool for your tool box, not for every round you load.

I posted on another site, the process I used during my AR load development. If it is allowable to post links to other sites, I will share it with you.

[Pepe Ray]

To one and all.
As you should have concluded from my first post, I have NOT used the device. Won't be able to until I fab an adapter to use on my Rock Chucker. That needs a rountoit. AAMOF the thing that prompted my purchase of the CC had more to do with swaging .22LRRF ammo using my Paco Kelly Nasty Nose tool. 'Though the tool was intended to be impact operated I have queasy feelings when I swing a mallet onto the tool. Also I'm not confident of my consistency of swing. The CC offers a great improvement ,safely, in my small game ammo.

Thanks Randy for the great explanation. I 'd never have the patience to type all that.
Pepe Ray

[dudel]

Not sure I get the point of the product. What are you trying to measure, and where are you trying to improve? This tool will measure the force put on the crimp. Which can be very different than bullet pull or neck tension (which I *think* is what you are trying to set consistently).

The tool does not account for case length, thickness of the neck brass, variations in projectile diameter, brass hardness, and a likely a number of other factors which affect neck tension. As Randy said, case prep is the key. To me, this tool ignores all these factors and tries to give you a "feel good" just because you are pulling the handle consistently.

What might be more useful, but would be destructive testing, would be something to measure the force required to move the projectile in a completed round. Ideally while pulling the projectile out; but possibly by trying to push it in. Of course the round is useless after testing (but so is one shot over a chronograph).

If the results were consistent, it would tell you that your components AND technique were consistent (as with a chromo). However, if the results are inconsistent (and assuming your case prep was meticulous), then perhaps your technique is flawed. Sometimes technique is to blame for wide variations in powder drop for example.

[PatMarlin]

I never assumed using this product means one would ignore all the details in case prep.

I plan as I always do to continue with my case prep and reloading, but I think the tool may add to consistency and repeatability of some of these functions I use in reloading. One being LEE factory crimp dies which I never cam over.

Thanks for your post Sean. Please post a link to your AR work.

So I will post findings if I buy one.

[WallyM3]

Not as precise, I suppose, but Wally's Torque Limiter, Mk XXXVII works for me:



Still, I'm a tool junkie, so page bookmarked.

[PatMarlin]

Sean just sent me a link on his shooting and all I can say is WOW...!

Please post the link Sean.

I will definitely use this handle with my Lee factory crimp dies.

[seanhagerty]

http://ar15armory.com/forums/topic/1...-win/?hl=crimp

If this is against the forum rules, please delete this post. I checked the rules and could not find anything that spoke to this.

Sean

[W.R.Buchanan]

The way a torque wrench works is.... (Not referring to an old torque wrench with a pointer, but a more modern release type Torque Wrench.)

There is a ball socket,,,, IE: a round piece with a hole in it, inside a tube.. The tube fits over the round piece and is larger than the OD of the round piece so there is plenty of clearance.

The tube is the handle of the wrench.

The round piece is the part that transmits the torque to whatever you are twisting,,, however that piece could also just go into a hole in something and that force would be transmitted to that piece. It doesn't have to turn something, It can simply apply a force in a direction. Like the "crimp limiter tool" we are discussing.

Further down the round piece is a cross pin which the tube/handle pivots on, and it will rotate around that pin to the limits of what the round piece inside the tube will allow. Usually there is only a few degrees of travel allowed.

There is a Ball Bearing that is preloaded with a large spring into the hole in the round piece. How much it is preloaded is what you have set the wrench to when you adjusted the torque wrench.

When the torque is met, the ball pops out of the hole and the tube is allowed to go to it's limit. (only a few degrees off center.)

When you release the handle the ball pops back into the hole, and the handle centers up back in it's starting position,,, and you start over.

I have made hundreds of these devices in my shop.

I hope explanation clarifies how this type of torque wrench works. It is pretty simple.

Randy

[Tuckerp229]

Greetings all. After tracing the sudden activity from Castboolits through Google analytics I decided to make myself available to answer any questions you may have. I am the inventor, patent holder, and manufacturer of the Consistent Crimp. Ask away.


PS. Greetings Sean, it has been a long time!