Cat Sneeze .308 out of a Win 88

[Higbean]

Hey guys. I'm starting to play around with sub loads out of my Win 88 chambered for .308win. I'm starting to think about casting but I'm on the fence a little. I already have way too many hobbies and not enough time for them. I was thinking I'd just buy some cast bullets to play with at first. I've got Trail Boss, Unique and Blue Dot on hand and I've been playing with Trail Boss loads and jacketed bullets. Just a little too loud and I'm quite nervous about sticking one in the bore of this sentimental rifle.

Can you guys recommend some cast bullets for sub loads and tell me where to buy them? I'm thinking I'd like 180-200 gr but I'm not 100% the 1-12 bbl will stabilize them.

Thanks,

Higgins

[trixter]

I cast 150 gr RFN boolits for my 30-06, and my 300 Savage (bolt Remington) and they shoot very well, I use 12 gr of Unique and am very accurate at 100 yards, for hunting I may use 170 gr, not sure yet. The 300 Savage round is very close to the 308, in fact I have used 308 cases to make 300 Savage cases.

[WilliamDahl]

The .308 case capacity is between the .30-30 and the .30-06.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/3030w170_dat.htm
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/3006s170_dat.htm

[Outpost75]

Important thing is that you want a lead bullet which is THROAT size, not to barrel groove diameter.

For a "store bought" bullet for your "cat sneeze" loads in .308 Win. buy something .311" diameter and around 150 grains.
like this one:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/204...ProductFinding

Load with 5-6 grains of any fast-burning pistol or shotgun powder you have around, Bullseye, Red Dot, 700-X, W231, Unique, PB will all work.

It is VERY important to inside deburr cases well do that you don't damage the bullet base or shave any lead in seating.
I recommend that you get one of these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/342...-very-low-drag

You will also need to flare the case mouths slightly to eliminate any risk of shaving lead when seating the bullet. Standard dies size the case more than needed, so you must flare the case, as in loading handgun rounds, enough that you can hand-start the bullet with your fingers partway up the base band. While you "might" get away without the VLD chamfer tool, if you deburr with a standard one, you can't do without either a Lyman "M" die or the equivalent from RCBS, etc.:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/129...0-caliber-long

Happy plinking!

[Higbean]

Thanks guys.

Can anyone recommend a 180-200 gr .311 cast bullet?

[WilliamDahl]

Thanks guys.

Can anyone recommend a 180-200 gr .311 cast bullet?

For that diameter, you might need to go with a bullet for the 7.62x39 or .303 British and resize then down slightly. Both of those in the Lee offerings are .312" diameter.

http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casti...-double-cavity

If you want a really light bullet in that diameter for some cheap shooting, look at the ones for the .32 caliber handguns.

http://leeprecision.com/6-cavity-311-93-1r.html

[Outpost75]

....sub loads out of my Win 88 chambered for .308win.....I was thinking I'd just buy some cast bullets to play with at first. I've got Trail Boss, Unique and Blue Dot on hand and I've been playing with Trail Boss loads and jacketed bullets. Just a little too loud and I'm quite nervous about sticking one in the bore of this sentimental rifle....Can you guys recommend some cast bullets for sub loads and tell me where to buy them? I'm thinking I'd like 180-200 gr but I'm not 100% the 1-12 bbl will stabilize them.

A 12" twist is not going to do very well with bullets heavier than 180-grains in the subsonic, Cat Sneeze role.
The 154-grain Hunter's Supply LFN is well suited for this type of load. My earlier reply has a link for information and suggestions fr load data, etc.

[Digital Dan]

Higbean, I'm puzzled about why you are looking at heavy bullets for a "cat sneeze" load. Don't add up in my noggin. Light bullet, small charge, you might get somewhere with that. Recall shooting round balls from a .44 rifle once over a charge of about 1.5 grains of Bullseye. Sounded a bit like a hog fart as I recall, not a cat sneeze. Neighbors never knew it happened.

I paper patched them, but you could probably accomplish the same with a bit of Vaseline and beeswax on the ball.

[PhantomF4E]

I have been using the Lyman 311291 170gn mold in my 30-06 . That bullet has been loaded into a 30-30 and my bro-in-laws .308 I use the magic formula of 12 gns of Unique and seat to .030 off the grooves . I have a tight bore in my '06 so I don't need a monster .310/11. That light load dropped two florida whitetails d-r-t with a heart lung shot and believe it or not shot right through . Even when running the '06 at 30-30 velocity . It hits like a flipping brick and the exit wound was nasty , so my lead recipe expanded well even though I thought they were on the hard side after i water dropped them . Don't expect much more than 100-150 yds though if you use this . They fall off fast .

[Larry Gibson]

A 12" twist .308W will fully stabilize a 1.192" long 311299 of 210 gr down to less than 500 fps. However I do not recommend that bullet for use in the short magazine length of the M88 rifle. I would suggest the 311041 or the Lee 170 FN if small game or pests are on the menu. I not then any similar RN bullet will do as well. Cast them very, very soft (40-1 or 30-1 alloy works fine), TL in LLA and size at .311 for the .308W. You may or may not use a GC. I'd start with 3 gr of Bullseye and work up to 6.5 gr. I'd also use well fire formed cases. If testing at 50 yards expect to use a bit of elevation to be on target. If testing at 100 yards expect to use a lot of elevation. Make sure the bullet left the muzzle if no hole appears on the target. Very good accuracy can be had down around 500 - 600 fps if the rifle has the elevation adjustment for zero.

"Cat's sneeze" loads traditionally use pistol weight bullets and very small doses of fast pistol powders for minimal velocity. Any 88 - 120 gr PB soft cast bullet will work quite well. I favor the Lee TL314-90-SWC lightly TL'd with LLA and sized .311. Over 3.2 gr Bullseye which runs them at about 850 fps and excellent accuracy. Other light weight .30/.31 cal pistol bullets do as well.

Larry Gibson

[Higbean]

Higbean, I'm puzzled about why you are looking at heavy bullets for a "cat sneeze" load. Don't add up in my noggin. Light bullet, small charge, you might get somewhere with that. Recall shooting round balls from a .44 rifle once over a charge of about 1.5 grains of Bullseye. Sounded a bit like a hog fart as I recall, not a cat sneeze. Neighbors never knew it happened.

I paper patched them, but you could probably accomplish the same with a bit of Vaseline and beeswax on the ball.

I want maximum energy at minimal velocities.

[Higbean]

A 12" twist .308W will fully stabilize a 1.192" long 311299 of 210 gr down to less than 500 fps. However I do not recommend that bullet for use in the short magazine length of the M88 rifle. I would suggest the 311041 or the Lee 170 FN if small game or pests are on the menu. I not then any similar RN bullet will do as well. Cast them very, very soft (40-1 or 30-1 alloy works fine), TL in LLA and size at .311 for the .308W. You may or may not use a GC. I'd start with 3 gr of Bullseye and work up to 6.5 gr. I'd also use well fire formed cases. If testing at 50 yards expect to use a bit of elevation to be on target. If testing at 100 yards expect to use a lot of elevation. Make sure the bullet left the muzzle if no hole appears on the target. Very good accuracy can be had down around 500 - 600 fps if the rifle has the elevation adjustment for zero.

"Cat's sneeze" loads traditionally use pistol weight bullets and very small doses of fast pistol powders for minimal velocity. Any 88 - 120 gr PB soft cast bullet will work quite well. I favor the Lee TL314-90-SWC lightly TL'd with LLA and sized .311. Over 3.2 gr Bullseye which runs them at about 850 fps and excellent accuracy. Other light weight .30/.31 cal pistol bullets do as well.

Larry Gibson

Thanks Larry. I've been thinking the heavier bullets would stabilize because they can be so short in a cast flat nose bullet. And we all know it's length that matters. Haha

[WilliamDahl]

I want maximum energy at minimal velocities.

Since kinetic energy is directly proportional to the mass of the projectile and proportional to the square of the velocity, you're kind of fighting a losing battle there is you want to get the same energy out of a projectile by going heavy. Halfing the velocity would mean that you would need to quadruple the mass in order to maintain the same kinetic energy. Recoil is not related to related to kinetic energy, but rather is related to momentum (max * velocity). Momentum is conserved, kinetic energy is not. For firearms though, that is a bit overly simplistic since you have to also factor in the mass of the powder and gases expelled and their velocity.

Are you looking for a hunting load and if so, what is the intended game?
Or are you perhaps looking for a subsonic load that can be used with a suppressor?

[Higbean]

I'm trying to find a hunting load that will work for up to deer size game that I don't need ear plugs for. I want my girls to be able to plink with Grandpas rifle with out wearing big headgear. I don't want to sight in for two loads so i figured a heavy, subsonic load might fit the bill. Am I on the wrong path?

[WilliamDahl]

I'm trying to find a hunting load that will work for up to deer size game that I don't need ear plugs for. I want my girls to be able to plink with Grandpas rifle with out wearing big headgear. I don't want to sight in for two loads so i figured a heavy, subsonic load might fit the bill. Am I on the wrong path?

Even with a subsonic load, you should probably wear ear protection. The electronic muffs work pretty good with respect to attenuating the noise of the gunshots while also allowing voice and other sounds around you to come through. Some will even amplify the surrounding sounds if you so desire while also attenuating the higher decibel sounds. In my younger days, I never wore ear protection when hunting or at the range. That might have something to do with the fact that my hearing is not that great these days. Regardless, I still claim that I'm only deaf to frequencies around the sound of my wife's voice.

Of course, there's also the issue if you are shooting a semi-auto of whether the particular load will cycle the action.

Depending upon the age of your granddaughters, you want them to be able to plink with a very light load -- one that might not be appropriate for deer. It's still probably good practice to get them in the habit of wearing hearing protection though.

[Hurricane]

If you want a 180 to 200 grain bullet try the RCBS 30-180-FN. It will drop from the mold about 193 grains and with lube and gas check will be near 200. It is extremely accurate in my 308 at about 1700 fps.

[Digital Dan]

I'm trying to find a hunting load that will work for up to deer size game that I don't need ear plugs for. I want my girls to be able to plink with Grandpas rifle with out wearing big headgear. I don't want to sight in for two loads so i figured a heavy, subsonic load might fit the bill. Am I on the wrong path?

Couple of things for you to consider on this, maybe a couple of couples.

By conventional standards today most folks dismiss cast bullets on belief they don't have enough energy to kill cleanly. Such beliefs are intuitive but misguided and testimony to the point is posted here daily. Another small log on that fire if I may?

I am a volunteer to the state for a hog eradication program and work about 1200 acres on an island on the Gulf coast. Been at it since 2007 and have removed over 100 hogs ranging from 30-250#. Due to residential proximity I am restricted to rimfire weapons. A small number have been taken with the .22 LR and WMR. Over 90 have fallen to CB Shorts and of that number one required two shots. One taken with LR ammo required two shots.

Points to consider in this quest of yours is whether you are willing to demand precision from yourself and grand kids or do you wish to rely on energy even though it is largely meaningless.

Ponder this briefly, I have to end this for the moment but will return with a few more comments soon. I think what you're looking for is doable but a gear shift or two might be in order.

Dan

[Hurricane]

If you want a 180 to 200 grain bullet try the RCBS 30-180-FN. It will drop from the mold about 193 grains and with lube and gas check will be near 200. It is extremely accurate in my 308 at about 1700 fps.

I'm trying to find a hunting load that will work for up to deer size game that I don't need ear plugs for. I want my girls to be able to plink with Grandpas rifle with out wearing big headgear. I don't want to sight in for two loads so i figured a heavy, subsonic load might fit the bill. Am I on the wrong path?

You are on the wrong path about ear protection. Even a 22 will damage hearing with regular use. Get the most comfortable ear protection you can find. The girls need it and they will be more likely to wear it if you wear it also.

[Digital Dan]

To continue, the goals you pursue are straightforward. Low noise and lethality. The first is a matter of expansion ratios and the second one of precision placement.

First: you do not need a heavy bullet or hard alloy. CB shorts have the poorest metrics of any commercially available ammo I am aware of in terms of alloy (soft), velocity (700 fps) and energy (30 something FPE). Yet they will penetrate the neck of smaller hogs to include the spine on broadside shots. Hit the spine and they fold on the spot.

The forehead bone on a hog's skull is not thick. A CB short will penetrate that, and the brain and exit into the neck muscle 100% of the time, in part because the bullet does not expand or deform significantly.

My point here is that sometimes less is more. Likewise, in another time I owned 100 acres in middle Georgia that was overrun with hogs. In 2 years I killed over 70 hogs there w/ 20 ga. #3 buckshot. Lacking a major bone strike the shot would exit offside and on 3 occasions I killed 3 hogs stone dead with a single shot.

Second: if one is inclined to follow this path they need to do two things. 1) develop a load that is very consistant and very accurate. They need to understand the anatomy if their quarry thoroughly and 2), putting yourself in a position to capitalize on those advantages with certain precision 100% of the time.

I've not shot but a single hig since 2007 that was more than 20 yards distant and most were closer to 10 yards. I still hunt very heavy cover and have passed on as many shots as I've taken. I don't wear earplugs...and I can put 5 shots in 1/2" at 50 yards with my chosen rifle.

That is my experience and thoughts to large degree. My suggestion to you would be a bullet in the 150 grain range of fairly soft alloy and a target velocity of 800-900 fps.

[Higbean]

Thanks guys for your help and concern for my daughters hearing. We shoot CB caps and CCI Quiet .22 without hearing protection all the time. These are the decibel levels I'm aiming for. Anything louder gets the ears. Common sense really.

Dan, I think I will take your advice and try a 150 gr of the softest alloy I can. Know anyone selling any?