Pardon me for asking...

[MBTcustom]

I just had one other thought that is worth throwing out there.
Any of you could do what Ajay is doing, and if you keep your nose clean and maintain an honest attitude, I dare say you could get much further.
Everybody likes riding the bus that someone is driving and checking out the scenery along the way, but you could start your own journey.
I can tell you this, for every one member we have that posts pictures of what he is doing and shares openly, there are ten that do these things in private and never post anything.

[Teddy (punchie)]

goodsteal Thanks !! for trying to explain this. Not sure what led up to all of this but it is done and so be it.

I think most of us are just nosy and have a need to know, is all it comes down to.

Ajay may have reason(s) for what he did, but if he is not going to work to make a easement for what was said then it is done.

Thanks !! Again !!

[MBTcustom]

I think most of us are just nosy and have a need to know, is all it comes down to.

Ajay may have reason(s) for what he did, but if he is not going to work to make a easement for what was said then it is done.

Thanks !! Again !!

I can respect that, and Ajay was loved by many people here and vanished suddenly. I felt you were all owed an explanation (others disagree with me).

The fact that Ajay did not do whatever it takes to make things right is the worst part of this, and really is the best evidence to back up what I am saying.
If these accusations had been made about me, I would have submitted myself to any authority I could, and begged forgiveness from the offended parties. Whatever it took to apologize and clear my name before it was too late. I would have done this as soon as I got wind that someone had a problem with me if there was any way I could have done it.
I got in Ajays face over comments that he made on the forum, and there was absolutely nothing done to make that right. That was a bad move. I would have gone to bat for him otherwise.
As it was, he had a whole squad of cheerleaders egging him on, and he let that go to his head instead of doing the right thing.
"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil."

[cpileri]

Its true, i just was curious; wasn't going to ask but i am, voyeurishly, glad someone else did.

I still check in on Ajay on the ASSA forum but there isnt much going on there; it goes days without any new posts at all.

this forum is definitely the place to be(*).

C-

(*) i have test 6 lined up, and will shoot them and post it w pics soon! Promise!!!

[DRNurse1]

Thanks Mods and Mr Goodsteel for keeping this the best place to share casting and loading information.

I am sorry that some treat this as a personal funding stream. There is likely something that you have for which someone else would be willing to pay, but as long as we keep sharing the knowledge gleaned your wealth will continue to exceed those profits.

This thread is a good illustration of that and, although we do not hear from Ajay directly, all parties seem well represented.

[turbo1889]

turbo: I respect your respectful rejection of my point.

However your example made my point! When you were wrong,,, what word did you not understand? Because if you had understood all the words, you wouldn't have been wrong in the first place,,, and you probably wouldn't have disagreed with the other person either.

I defy you or anyone else to relate one instance where the"root cause" of the conflict was not a misunderstood word or phrase.

If you trace it back to the beginning they all start this way and I have been studying this phenomenon for 40 years and have yet to find even one that did not! . . .

The "false assertion" that I believe is a form of wishful thinking personified on a subconscious level boils down to your (and others, you are by no means the first one I've encountered with this specific view point) to the use of the word "all" in front of "conflicts" followed by some phrase along the lines of "result from misunderstandings of what the other guy said".

I would actually agree with you that many, quite possibly most conflicts do indeed result from this. But it is not "ALL" of them and there is a significant minority that are totally and completely conflicts not based on misunderstanding but on actual strong differences that are clearly understood.

I will now quote myself in part as to what I specifically said with bold emphasis added to clarify that this was what I was addressing (perhaps it would have been wise to bold emphasis the "all" in the original):

. . .

#3 ~ I'll try to say this one as respectfully as possible. The false assertion that all conflicts are caused by misunderstandings of communication . . .

One blatant example of this could theoretically consist of a poster from the hard line Islamic world posting a thread on this forum asking if his cast boolits would provide a quick clean kill on his daughter who he was honor bound to put down because she had been having premarital sex on the sly with the neighbor boy.

I (and hopefully a lot of others) would post that doing this would be cold blooded murder and he had no right much less any obligation to do such a thing. He obviously would disagree. We would both fully understand each other, not much room for "little language misunderstanding thing" going on with that one. And I can assure you we would fully disagree and there would be some sparks a flying. The disagreement would not be a matter of misunderstanding but rather a fundamental difference of position, in this case on a matter of considerable concern.

Or how about a serious disagreement involving lethal force where no words were exchanged whatsoever? I come home and walk into my house to find a home invasion thief in the act of stealing some of my guns. I open my door to find him and he sees me and I see him and he grabs one of the guns and I draw my sidearm and "bang!", "bang!", "bang!" is the only kind of communication that ensues. Obviously we had a strong enough disagreement to involve lethal force. Yet there was not a single word either verbal or written exchanged. That's not a possibility that is outside the realm of possibility and there are plenty of cases in this world where lethal combat has ensued without a single word to be "misunderstood" in order for the conflict between individuals to rise to such a level as to to be a matter of life and death.

The "it's all just a misunderstanding" theory as an absolute just doesn't hold water.

As to your specific challenge. A year ago or so I had a massive multi-page long internet debate with another individual on a different forum from this one over the pollution impact of driving a car vs. riding a low powered moped sized little put-put cycle. I initially strongly asserted that a big old car burning more gas compared to the 100-200 mpg little moped vehicle would mean the car produced way more pollution per mile. He strongly asserted the exact opposite was true and called gas mopeds and similar vehicles the worst polluters of all on the road.

By the time we both go done researching the actual facts on the mater and throwing them at each other along with a bunch of words that got rather strong at times. It turned out I was wrong on many points and that most small gas engine mopeds/scooters and similar produce more NOx, HC, CO, PT, etc . . . emissions per mile then a modern car with only the best of the line cleanest burning engines actually keeping those "smog" type pollutants down as much as a modern car or in a few cases just slightly less. But on CO2 the little gas sippers were way, way, way ahead of a car so I did win on that point but it was pretty much the only one with the exception that "fuel processing and delivery pollution cycle" (all the pollution caused by industry getting the gas into the pump before you fill up your vehicle) was high enough that on the grand scale of things getting better mpg and thus using less gas per same distance traveled actually makes as much reduction in pollution on the supply end to equal or more then make up for even the dirtiest burning engine that smokes like a chimney.

But it did turn out I was indeed very wrong that non-CO2 tailpipe pollution from a little moped or similar vehicle was much lower then a car, actually is usually the opposite. None of that was due to me not understanding him or vic-a-versa. We both understood each others positions quite clearly and they were diametrically opposed and on several specific points, it did turn out I was the one that was wrong.

Another example, an atheist evolutionist says their is no God and everything came out of Evolution starting in the beginning from nothing and the nothing became so compact it exploded into something (big bang). I say there must be at least one extremely powerful spirit being capable of creating the physical universe and everything in it because there is no macro-evolution for either living or non-living physicality only de-evolution on the macro scale and thus you must have a conscious creator(s) above the physical realm powerful enough to overcome the trend toward chaos entropy rather then systems of balance and precision in a universe where we see systems of balance and precision slowly decaying into chaos entropy. Either one of us is wrong and the other is right or we are both wrong. Impossible for us both to be right and its not a matter of us not understanding each others positions either, we both understand each others positions (and both think the other is nuts).




I can assure you that "debates", even "arguments", even "fights/brawls" can and do occur on gun forums including this one where the spark point of the whole thing is not a misunderstanding but rather clear and diametrically opposite positions that are non-negotiable with each other and at least one individual on both sides. And if you want to claim that the last option isn't possible in a long distance verbal conflict, I'll concede on that point and can give you a situation where it was face to face and it did go physical and I had to intervene with loaded firearm in hand to keep two younger middle-aged guys from beating one old guy half to death (He was loading at the range on the bench with a lee loader without weighing his charges and just using a full case compressed load of powder measured by volume with the case itself as the measure, they didn't think that was safe, he said it was because of the powder/cartridge/bullet-weight combination he was using. It started with some sharp high end hostility verbal action and then went physical and I made the decision to intervene when the old guy was down on the ground and they were both kicking him even though he was down and wasn't even fighting back anymore.).

[UNIQUEDOT]

[QUOTE]sometimes they use their knowledge to build a following[QUOTE]

And that's exactly what this and every other site of knowledge is here for wouldn't you agree? so that everyone can openly share their knowledge which would be worthless and useless if no one was there to "follow" it. I have no idea what happened with Ajay and being told what happened only tells me what I've been told. If he deserved being banned then so be it as I don't care either way as I only enjoyed reading his posts, but kept with my own slug and buck testing.

I also thought he was a standup guy, but I may be wrong as I said I don't know. I take advice and would give it if I had it I "follow" the advice of many here on casting and loading and am thankful for it, but the only man I follow is Jesus Christ. I guarantee you that any one here with more than a few posts have "followed" someones advice and as far as building followers how would we define the "following" of hmmm... let's just say some vendors here...that almost seem religious?.

I think Mr. Buchanan sums it up pretty good on how a misunderstanding allows these disputes to get out of hand as obviously I'm misunderstanding the (others) definition of "following" and "followers".

[W.R.Buchanan]

Turbo: So in the beginning of your CO2 debate did you, or did you not, understand that the moped polluted more? Was there a misunderstanding there? If you were wrong then obviously you had a misunderstanding on the subject. If you had not resolved this, in 25 years with many more incidents piled on top of this one, you could end up doing something heinous.

What you are missing here is the "Root Cause" portion of the conflict. In your CO2 debate it was just words, but in the case of the Arab his misunderstandings (which were probably taught to him by ignorant clerics), has lead him to want to kill his daughter.

I agree with you that if I came home and found someone raping my wife that he would be dead as soon as the sights came to bare. Without a word spoken!

I also would assure you that it would have been due to a serious misunderstanding on his part, and you can fill in anyone of hundreds to chose from in his mind.

However all cases are different and unique to the individuals but will tend to share common motivators. This is how a group of people functions. They all have something in common and part of that is little chains of events which are similar enough to each other to create a bond.

When it comes to the "Root Cause," this thought or misunderstanding may or may not have anything directly to do with the conflict at hand, and seldom does. It is part of a chain of events which mutates as similar events are piled on top one after another over time and eventually leads the individual to where he is at now. In fact when the root cause is unearthed it usually is so ridiculous and non-secquature to the final event, that it results in uncontrollable laughter. That's when you know you got to the bottom of that chain of events or it's "root cause." It is always a misunderstood word or phrase.

All of your examples are valid however they just don't go deep enough. I assure you that a misunderstood word or words are at the bottom of each one.

Believe me I have heard vehement denial of this concept literally hundreds of times, and I have witnessed the root cause of the chain of events come into view hundreds of times as well.

It always ends up the same way. When you sit in front of people and listen to their problems long enough they do tend to show similar motivations. The more you do it the more it validates the concept.

Randy

[btroj]

Wow, arguing over what caused the argument.

Cabin fever?

[6pt-sika]

He's gone get over it and move on !

[turbo1889]

@ UNIQUEDOT

By "following" I was referring to the semi-fanatical group of "fans" kind of like pro-sports fans Superbowl type rooting for your team and getting a huge high when your team wings or a huge let down it looses. At least in my mind a very different thing then learning from the work others have already done. That "rooting fan base" thing once it gets going can get ugly, sport fans have even killed each other in rare incidents in real life over team loyalty. Anything that starts getting close to that kind of "tribalism" or starts to smell like it to me turns me off, or if I'm the one being made the object of such scares the daylights out of me and makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on edge.

Hope that helped rather then muddied up the waters further. I've seen that kind of "cheering fan base" following of some individuals on some forums. I'm not so sure Ajay had that kind of base and if he did it was a fairly light version, my gut feeling though is he was the kind of personality that was desirous of it. Which actually isn't a reason I should judge him, there are a lot of extrovert personalities that crave and thrive on that and its just part of their personality. My personality all I can see is the responsibility and consequences potentials created which I tend to run the other way from.




@ W.R.Buchanan

Well, I guess I am missing it. Because I see conflicts created by misunderstanding where the more each side truly understands each other the more the conflict is reduced. And I see conflicts created by real differences where the more each side truly understands the other the more the conflict is escalated.

And I most certainly reject the idea in principle that if we could all just understand each other we would all get along. Some conflicts can certainly be solved that way. Others cannot. For those that cannot there are some where one side or the other can be proven right or wrong (or both sides proven wrong) that is often the case in points of disagreement in the hard sciences. Ultimately Dr. Pasture's microb theory was proven correct and his major opponents who thought the idea of microscopic disease causing organisms absurd were proven wrong. Some of his opponents once proven wrong were high enough minded to accept it and change their stand, a few others its a matter of history still refused even with overwhelming proof right up to their death, one actually causing his own death in a desperate attempt to prove the famed Dr. wrong by deliberately infecting himself with one of the Dr's "nonsense" microbe cultures. Unfortionalty, this is not always the case where the truth can be found out and proven since many points of hard disagreement are more esoteric in nature.

Thankfully, though with a reloading and casting forum many of the disagreements that are "hard point" disagreements not matters of misunderstanding of communication tend towards the hard sciences enough to often fall into the "provable" category rather then esoteric. But this in and of itself with some personalities can make things get even more ugly since some personalities and mental frames of mind fight even harder and more viciously with more under handed tactics upon realization that they are the one that is wrong rather then admit it.

[turbo1889]

Wow, arguing over what caused the argument.

Cabin fever?

Can't 100% deny the possibility.

I personally am actually more interested in the more theological discussion (I've tried not to get argumentative although I admit maybe not with full success) as to what causes stuff like this and what the deeper things going on the background are IN GENERAL, NON-SPECIFIC TO THIS PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL/INCIDENT.

Human nature study, or at least that is the direction I seem to be drifting the thread. Hope I don't get in trouble for thread drifting.

[UNIQUEDOT]

He's gone get over it and move on !

That he is and I for one couldn't care less, but I do have a problem with a mans character being attacked by accusations of "building followers" when that is exactly what every single vendor on this site is out to do so that they can sell their products and in turn sponsor the site.

[turbo1889]

In that case I think I should clarify my statements further even though I have tried to do so already. "Building followers" I do not see so much as a "character flaw" as a different personality type that because it is different then mine I obviously have compatibility issues with I probably shouldn't judge him for. Such "party king/queen" personalities do seem to have more drama around them though; again trying not to judge, trying to keep an open mind, just my observations from the slanted view point of someone who is a different personality type.

Any personality type can get themselves banned from the forum if they let their weak points run away on them. Different personality types just have different weak points that try to run away on them, that's all. I kind of know what mine are, and if I missed one I'm sure some on this forum will gladly let me know and if they don't. Well my woman will certainly let me know next time I get into an argument with her !!!

[jmort]

Some real dumb-a$$ nonsense posted in this thread. goodsteel provided the site prospective which was productive. I like this site for many reasons including "Casting For Shotguns" and consider goodsteel a friend. I also consider Ajay a friend and he provided me with much useful information and inspiration. In the fullness of time, I see what a loss it is not to have Ajay here. No one comes close, except Ed, for info and graphics for shotguns. And then I see get over it comments from members who are less than useless and add nothing. I consider this a Greek tragedy hubris and all. This is the best site for shotgun slug/buck/ball reloading, bar none, and the best firearms site period. BTW, I side with W.R. Buchanan over Turbo1889 in the off topic argument. Turbo1889 does have a real good handle on shotguns and thanks to him for some great shotgun info. Most all of you are real good guys. I also agree with the notion that many others have, and are trying to gain a following and I don't have a problem with that or cliques.

[6pt-sika]

And then I see get over it comments from members who are less than useless and add nothing.

Oh , you're such an expert LOL's !

[MBTcustom]

I'm really rubbing my temples and trying to understand how my instruction to MOVE ON, was misunderstood.

Please go shoot something and remind yourselves why we are all here in the first place!
It's not that hard to take a shot at a target, take a picture, and post it online with your interpretation of what it means. Ya'll should try it sometime. It's fun, and usually, useful conversation ensues.

This thread is closed.