Older Remington Rifled barrel

[pipehand]

Stopped in at a gun shop while on my way to a USPSA shoot this morning, and got a pretty good deal on a Remington made 12 gauge 870 barrel, rifled with the two piece cantilever base, a Simmons 4x turkey scope, and Burris rings for 200 dollars. The Burris rings seem to be 3/8" rimfire style, but they fit the narrow cantilever base. The cantilevered portion can be removed from another base on the barrel that is in the "scout scope" position.

Was there a special mount/ring that was supposed to be used with this system? All the later one piece cantilever barrels I've seen look to be of weaver mount type. There are cross slots on the 3/8 dovetail, but the 3/8" rings on there now are not using them. The rings are of the high style, and there is about 7/16" clearance under the objective bell. I have 1x and a 2x pistol scopes that I would like to use on the forward mounting position, and I would like to mount them as low to the barrel as possible so I don't have to build up a rediculously high cheekpiece.

There are two sets of of tapped holes straddling the cross-slots at .600" c-t-c for the pair, and 4.150" center of pair to center of pair. there are two sets of screws holding the cantilever base to the "scout" base with the same c-t-c measurements, but they are set 3.45" between the centers of the screw pairs.

There is a bit of leading just in front of the chamber that will have to be removed. Looks like standard foster slugs were used, not sabots.

Anyone know what I've got, and any suggestions? I figured I'd ask here first before I contacted Remington to find out what kind of setup they intended.

I may have something that could perform better with Lee 1 ounce slugs better than I can get with .680" roundballs.

[OnHoPr]

Do you have a pic. How much clearance is between the bottom of the cantilever and the top of the receiver.

[pipehand]

I haven't mounted it to a receiver yet, but there is a .110" hard rubber( not able to measure durometer rating) "bumper" that is a part of the upper rail that should bear on the top of the receiver.

[OnHoPr]

Why don't you give one of these a try to get your slug gun shooting tighter http://www.oneholeproducts.com.

[pipehand]

Tighter than what, as I haven't shot it yet? Your product doesn't seem to match any of the spacing of the holes in this older remington cantilever mount. I just got in from work, and took the scope off. I'm starting to think it's an 11 mm rail as it measures .460" wide. Will probably just e-mail remington tonight so they can study on it when they get in to work tomorrow.

If I'm reading it right, the One Hot Product solidly attaches the barrel and receiver together to take out some of the flex, correct?

[OnHoPr]

Alright lets see. A. The actual cantilever is only dovetailed for 3/8" (?) or rimfire style dovetail correct. I have never seen or heard of one,but that is good to know. I just measured mine and my weaver style dovetail on my 835 is .840 (I'm pretty sure the standard now). If the cross bolt for the rings goes above the slots then the slots are not needed obviously. I know the Remington cantilever is affixed to a single mount of the later models (your mentioned as scout scope base)(only two screws are used), but when they first came out in the early 90's I am not sure of all the product changes in those early years.

"there are two sets of screws holding the cantilever base to the "scout" base with the same c-t-c measurements, but they are set 3.45" between the centers of the screw pairs." Again, must of been one of the earlier models. Then you are saying if I understand correctly that there are two cantilever mounting pillars silver soldered to the barrel or just one longer pillar for the cantilever in the scout scope base position?

The rings are still 1" correct?

I have not heard of any scout scope mounting system for that particular system. It might solve the higher mount syndrome which can be remedied with a leather tie-on or one of the nylon/foam cheek pieces, but would not solve the barrel to receiver connection causing erratic grouping on many switch barrel or "combo" shotguns.

There are two sets of of tapped holes straddling the cross-slots at .600" c-t-c for the pair, and 4.150" center of pair to center of pair. there are two sets of screws holding the cantilever base to the "scout" base with the same c-t-c measurements, but they are set 3.45" between the centers of the screw pairs. I'm not sure on that one either because why have scope base mount holes drilled & tapped in a weaver dovetail base system. It sounds like the small 3/8" dovetail might have not been solid enough for slug recoil and somebody had drilled and tapped the cantilever to put a different base system like a one or two piece base of Leopold or Weaver on the top of the cantilever for a try a getting it to shoot more consistent.

Sabots and rifled barrels were just developing back in the early 90's era.

Foster slugs can be shot out of a rifled barrel safely and sometimes accurately but lead the barrel really fast. Plus they still do not have the range as the sabot slugs or buck the wind is well. Lubed full bore can be done though. Back then the fosters could have played more of a roll in shooting with the rifled slug gun because of the availability, accuracy to a particular brand of sabot/barrel combo,or unknown. Or as I did when I first started shooting my shotgun. It's fairly expensive to shoot $10 to $20 5 to a box ammo at a hundred yards if your having trouble keeping them on a paper plate when you can almost do the same at 50 with a $12 box of 15. Which can be a big hassle cleaning lead from the rifling. And then with the kit can start hitting clay pigeons at 150 yards with certain brands of sabots.

"If I'm reading it right, the One Hot Product solidly attaches the barrel and receiver together to take out some of the flex, correct?"

It takes all flex out the cantilever. In a matter of speaking yes it more solidly attaches/bridges the barrel and receiver together. It will take most of the shimmy and wiggle out of the barrel/receiver connection when upon firing, but should take out all when try to see if it shimmies with hand. Most receivers of Remington and Mossberg are drilled and tapped. These are the dimensions that I am referring to on the website. You would need to have four countersunk holes drilled through the cantilever to match the stock existing holes in the receiver. If you were to put your barrel on after the countersunk holes were drilled you would look down through the countersunk holes and see the stock drill & tap holes on the receiver.

On your particular cantilever the process would be the same but you would have to use a set of rings to match your dovetail width such as what you have or use the I'm pretty sure non stock drill & tap holes in the cantilever to utilize a full Weaver dovetail type base mount. From your explanation of your cantilever mounting system to the barrel I am not sure if you could get a (just) cantilever from Remington to go to full width weaver mount. If the 3/8" dovetail might be a little small for slug recoil you might be able to acquire another set like the ones you have and use two sets of rings something like what they put on the harder recoiling handguns.

I hope the understanding and communication got a little better. I hope you get your hands warm this season.

[pipehand]

OnHoPr, thanks for responding. The cantilever came with Burris 3/8" rings attaching a Simmons 4x shotgun scope. The rings are for attaching to a round receiver, but the base on the shotgun barrel is flat on top, with cross-slots.

I think I picked up a very early rifled Remington barrel. I signed on with the Remington site, and posted a question about what type of rings were appropriate for the base, and will wait for a response.

I'm an "incedental" slug shooter, as I live in a rifle hunting state. I know there are guys on this forum that are trying to wring the very mostest out of what can chamber a 20 or 12 gauge shotgun shell to make it take the place of a rifle due to game laws.
For me, the rifled shotgun barrel is just another toy to play with, not a necessity for taking game. I read your site, and I'm the guy who would swap out barrels a lot.

When Remington responds, I'll post here what I will need to properly mount a scope. The Burris rings, while great rimfire rings, look a bit too "mickey mouse" for shotgun recoil on the dovetail rail.

Once I get the scope mounting issue solved, I'll be trying out my Lee slugs and .680" roundballs to see if there's an appreciable improvement in accuracy. The lure of fullbore boolits has some appeal, but that will have to wait a while.

[pipehand]

"Sabots and rifled barrels were just developing back in the early 90's era."

Do you remember the BRI (Ballistics Research Industries) Sabots? They were a .50 diameter sabot that was available in the early 80's. I remember trying them in a 1983 era Remington Police with rifle sights in 1983. They didn't perform as well as Winchester 1 ounce slugs, were more expensive, and made a smaller hole. I'm pretty sure they were the reason behind the development of the Hastings Paradox barrels. There was no advantage to them in a smoothbore, but they did fly fairly stable, even without being spun.

[OnHoPr]

I don't know the the actual year they came out (BRI). IIRC & IMO, yes they were the inspiration to the rifled barrel. Not being there or in the slug shooting arena at the time and only forms of literature in the ole noodle I can't say for truly sure. I'm more generally referring to the cantilever as to the early 90's circa. I have the book Mossberg Guide to Modern Slug Shooting & More (Copywright 1990 & 1997). Since you posted I took a quick look in it. I've been cramming a lot of data in the ole noodle lately with this computer stuff and its been getting a little defragmented. I seen a pic in it maybe describing your cantilever. Does your cantilever base mount have a three foot (pedestal) mounting system to the barrel and about 12" to 14" actual cantilever?

If it does then the REM002A18 will work, it just won't be necessary to have the rubber cushion on the bottom of the cantilever. First mount the barrel then apply the kit, then use two sets of rim fire rings of appropriate hieght for your bell diameter or try to find a set of rings for heavy recoil with the 3/8" dovetail of that era. You could also do the same but put a one or two base mount on the top of the cantilever like with those drill & tap holes and then a set of actual weaver style rings.

Two things to consider though, one is the bell diameter of your scope (supposedly 32 mm) for height to clear your cantilever. You will need some type of height there like from a base to get the bell above the cantilever because the cantilever is of the straight form extending all the way to beyond where most scope bells end. To where as most other cantilevers and guns in general have their barrels past the receiver starting to taper down. This is another reason that it might of been drilled & tapped. Or you could get one of the scopes that were straight tube without a bell. (To tell you a suspicion, somebody might have just put those rings and scope on there for the looks of the sale???.)

Second, the actual countersunk holes needed to be drilled for the Accurizing Slug Shotgun Kit to be applied might not coinside with the existing drill & tap holes if your actual stock receiver is drilled & tapped for a scope mount base. If your receiver is not drilled & tapped then there could be a little customized placement of those tapped holes in your receiver. Another point is that your cantilever style is a lot thinner (stock thickness) than the newer style cantilevers. That might mean that the holes might not need to be countersunk and the heads of the screws would stay on top of the cantilever or the screw would need to be shorten a touch (very simple process for the smith) if they were countersunk. This would mean that you would need a two piece base mount. I am not sure of the base mount (brand or gun model but for sure it was a flat base mount) that the existing drill & tap holes were made for in your cantilever. If you found the actual type bases that were used in the drilling & tapping of the cantilever and they got in the way of the kit screw placement in accordance with your existing receivers pattern then they would need to be countersunk. Or you could have the cantilever drilled and tapped for a different set of bases.

I have never seen one of those cantilevers at the range or hunting and I don't know how many were made of that particular style, but with a good scrubbing of the lead that barrel should have a good bore for accurate shooting with the kit. It looks like you measure in thousands so with a little figuring with holes and scope bells you should be able to synchronize all of the aspects to get a good solid scope mounted on the gun. Once you get it set up you may be surprised on what that slug gun can do. SC can have short to midrange thick, brushy, and wet situations just applicable for the use of of the slug gun. Which is some of its attributes where it shines.

Do you get to use dogs down there? I watched a few youtube vids of dog huntin and it looked pretty exciting.

[pipehand]

"Does your cantilever base mount have a three foot (pedestal) mounting system to the barrel and about 12" to 14" actual cantilever?"

Yup, that's it. 13 inches of cantilever, with the back 5.5" usable for mounting a scope.



I got a response from Remington that Weaver makes the rings. Then I went to the Weaver site, and they only showed rimfire tip-offs. there are cross slots on the base that should get a square cross bolt, like true weaver bases. All the Weaver rings they showed were sans cross bolt, and more suitable for the recoil of a .22.

I'm looking for the rings used in the EAA/Baikal shotguns as I believe they have a cross slot, and are an 11 mm dovetail.

Yes, dogs can be used to drive deer here in S.C. I understand its an old tradition, but it may be going by the wayside as more and more people are torqued off that deer are being run in front of cars, and dog packs don't have any respect for property lines. It's kind of a redneck social event that involves shotguns, CB's, dogs, tracking collars, and shooting parrallel to roads as deer cross while being chased by dogs. I've done it in N.C. and S.C., but honestly, it's not that productive a hunting method. When they call it "dog hunting" its because that's what you do most of the time- hunt for the dogs.

[pipehand]

this is the setup on the shotgun barrel



Looks like someone else has rimfire rings on the dovetail that do not use the cross slots.

[OnHoPr]

Those rings do have a more meaty look to them. Maybe they were designed for the heavier recoil of the 12 ga and for that particular 3/8" dovetail scope mounting system. It looks like they have two screws per top side and a wide grip on the dovetail. If you had the use of a GOOD drill press and a center drill and/or somebody that was good with it, you could accurately measure your hole locations in the top of the cantilever to match your existing drill & tap holes in the receiver then take the cantilever off and drill them yourself. You could use the REM002A18 and leave the screw head on top of the cantilever and put those heavy style rings on the dovetail. Then put your scope on the rings. That should make a real solid mounting system for your sighting system. I like the barrel not having any ports to it. It really doesn't seem to have any effect with the thick sabots of factory ammo or at least by my noticing, but seems to have an irregular effect on shooting the shotgun wad slugs such as the Lee. I don't know the twist in that barrel or how good of a shot you are but when and if you get it set up on a no wind day with the right sabot slug or loading you might be less than an 1" to 1 1/2" and no more that 2" with three shots on a good day with a good scope. The rings that are pictured there should be able to accommodate the bell of the scope you mentioned and probably a touch bigger but depending on comfort of comb height to scope axis still may need adjustment for your particular needs. The slots are basically for lower sight height so if you found rings for that particular dovetail system you could just possibly have cross slots milled where you want them or stick with one of the comb pieces for sight height comfort.

[pipehand]

A lot of better airguns use the 11 mm mount, and because the spring powered actually have recoil (away from the shoulder in most cases) they use a locating screw in the scope ring to keep the ring from moving on the rail. Looks like I'll be buying airgun rings to mount on the shotgun. They appear to be more substantial than most rimfire rings, and even some centerfire rings.

The fellow at Remington finally did a little research, and said that they didn't make that particular setup but for a couple of years.


Might have it sorted out for next hunting season. Right now I'm working a bunch of overtime, and haven't had time to put any of the garden munching ruminants in the freezer.

[pipehand]

I removed the cantilever portion off the barrel today, and used the high Burris rings to mount a Nikon 2x pistol scope on the forward base. The Lee 1 ounce loads I had made up for the smoothbore barrel were printing 2 to 2&1/2 inch groups at 50 yards.

The .680 round ball loads shot well, and into the same general area as the slugs. I see a definite improvement over the smoothbore barrel accuracy.

I'm going to have to forgo fixing the cantilever base to the receiver, making the wingmaster a Dedicated Slug Gun. Being able to easily swap barrels is part of the 870 charm. If I do go for a DGS, it will probably be an H&R package with either the 357 or 44 barrel in 12 Gauge.

I'll probably never get to be one of those 'lite mousketeers, cause I can hunt deer and hogs with metallic cartridge rifles, but I wouldn't mind a Junior Associate membership. Having a rifled barrel opens up another area of experimentation.

[RMc]

Pipehand,
Older thread - better answer:

The original Remington Rings came in two heights. The high rings were marked Made in USA, the low rings were marked "Made in Australia. The low rings (Part #103555) are perfect for extremely low forward "scout" scope mounting when the extended "cantilever" is removed. If you come across original rings this information may help.

It is truly a shame that scout scope type mounting for removable barrel repeating shotguns did not catch on. Forward mounted scopes
are the simple solution that keeps the optic low and negates the need for raised comb stocks.

[pipehand]

Ralph, I did take off the cantilever portion,and used the millet rings the barrel came with to mount a 2x Nikon pistol scope in the scout position. I'm still looking for low 11mm rings, preferably with the airgun style locator pin for the cross slot. I have seen Beeman rings in "medium" offered,but they look pretty high from the pictures.

The rings I have on the gun are too high for a proper cheek weld. I'm wondering how the previous owner managed with the line of sight even higher when using the cantilever.

So far the 680 roundball loads that did well in the smoothbore did very well in the rifled barrel. Been working too much out of town to spend a bunch of time loading and shooting. The long range slug/ball thread popped up at the wrong time for me.

Will start a search for those Australian made rings. How did you get that info?

[RMc]

Ralph, I did take off the cantilever portion,and used the millet rings the barrel came with to mount a 2x Nikon pistol scope in the scout position. I'm still looking for low 11mm rings, preferably with the airgun style locator pin for the cross slot. I have seen Beeman rings in "medium" offered,but they look pretty high from the pictures.

The rings I have on the gun are too high for a proper cheek weld. I'm wondering how the previous owner managed with the line of sight even higher when using the cantilever.

So far the 680 roundball loads that did well in the smoothbore did very well in the rifled barrel. Been working too much out of town to spend a bunch of time loading and shooting. The long range slug/ball thread popped up at the wrong time for me.

Will start a search for those Australian made rings. How did you get that info?

I ran across the rings in a search to set up my 870 slug barrel. With the low rings an older Burris 1.5X Scout Scope just clears the barrel.