swaging military replica rounds

[nopain_knowpain]

Ok, so im relatively new to reloading and im brand new to swaging, so forgive the newbiness here. all im wondering is if with the proper equipment, can you make a mk318 round or a m855 boolit? i know corbin makes a multi-part stacked bullet kit, but the way its described it sounds more like what theyre trying to do with that die is make a small shotgun like effect for a home defense round.

thanks in advance

[reed1911]

You sure can, however, it will be a bit of a chore to do. Your steel will need to match both the dies and jacket exactly, and you will likely scratch the dies at some point. If you can find the inserts you can use them as a basis for the dies and have them made. I'm not sure why you want to venture into this, but its your project.

[nopain_knowpain]

yeah im just looking into making rounds im used to working with as im military and the cost of those 2 specific rounds is a bit on the either high or hard to find side. i figured the mk318 might be a bit easier to do since its a copper base and lead core and jacketing rounds seems fairly straight forward with swaging. tell me if it seems like im having dillusions of granduer here though. im not trying to make this into a full time chore just to say ha! i did it.

[Utah Shooter]

I have thought about making a steel core bullet. Seems to me it should be relatively easy. I have plenty of steel bb's here for the boys bb gun. Am I mistaken on what a m855 projectile is? no pain no gain.... know pain know gain....

[Nickle]

M855 and SS109 have a steel core. Now, somebody is going to call me out if I saying the following is fact, so I'm qualifying it.

I'm pretty sure those steel cores in the M855 and SS109 are soft, not hardened steel. Therefore, they aren't true AP. And, M855A1 is a whole different matter, as far as I know, no lead or drastically reduced lead.

M62 (7.62 NATO) and M2 AP (30-06) are true AP and the cores are hardened steel.

What I do know is, M855 isn't all that accurate. And, I have bought pulled M855 bullets in the not too long ago past. They reload OK, they work OK. Like the original, not overly accurate.

And, yes, I do have a fair amount of experience with them.

[Nickle]

I have thought about making a steel core bullet. Seems to me it should be relatively easy. I have plenty of steel bb's here for the boys bb gun. Am I mistaken on what a m855 projectile is? no pain no gain.... know pain know gain....

You're right, it isn't that hard to do. Not dead sure how legal it is, but, best I know, it's OK to make and use yourself. 223 is somewhat determined to be a pistol caliber, like 308 is. 30-06 isn't, I think. ATF isn't that hard on them, unless you're a Type 06 FFL (ammo manufacturer).

And Joe is right, steel core. Mild steel. Don't know how BB's would work though.

[reed1911]

No legal hoops to jump through, so long as they are rifle rounds. Yep steel core, the reason for the steel is balance not AP. The steel helps cause the bullet to tumble upon impact and/or break apart.

You can make or buy standard bullets that shoot much better than the GI loads, they are made to specific use and not so much for target work. While I understand you are used to shooting them in the military, I'm not sure why you would want to continue on this side of the fence when there are much better options available to you. Just for the fun of doing it, well, that is a mighty expensive "HA". OTOH if you plan on making top quality bullets to shoot and you toss in a little work to make a copy then its all in good fun.

[Nickle]

No legal hoops to jump through, so long as they are rifle rounds.

That statement isn't as obvious as you may think.

I have several center fire rifles that aren't legally "firearms". They are pre-1898, and therefore legally fall under the same category as muzzle loaders, which aren't legally "firearms" either.

Now, some normally rifle calibers are legally considered "pistol" calibers, as pistols have been made in them. 7.62x39 and 308 are two that immediately come to mind.

From what I know, it is legal to make ammo with steel cored bullets for your own use, but not for sale.

As a Type 06 FFL, I can tell you the only ammo you manufacture that you MUST keep a record of who you sell it to is "armor piercing", and the definition there does NOT include rifle ammo.

Now, I'll point out I'm human, and might make a mistake. My advice is to check it out yourself, maybe even consult a good ATF agent. Yes, some do exist, though not all are.

[trevj]

Ok, so im relatively new to reloading and im brand new to swaging, so forgive the newbiness here. all im wondering is if with the proper equipment, can you make a mk318 round or a m855 boolit? i know corbin makes a multi-part stacked bullet kit, but the way its described it sounds more like what theyre trying to do with that die is make a small shotgun like effect for a home defense round.

thanks in advance

Not gonna say that you can't or shouldn't, but the guys that made those rounds (the military ammo)in the first place did so in a volume that the savings in materials costs made up for the headaches of going through the steps and tooling up.

Sit down with a couple good books (the Corbin brothers both have some good literature) and sit down with pencil and calculator and start to figure out your expenses, and decide from there if you really need them all that bad. A swage press is gonna be the least of your worries.

IMO, making a bullet like this is a fools game. Make plain, cup and core bullets if you want to be self-sufficient, and when the paranoia and panic buying slows down again, and the stuff that folks have ratholed away starts trickling out, buy some bulk pulls and stick them aside.

The reality for me is that I will likely never shoot enough cheap home made bullets in my lifetime to justify the cost of the 'free bullets from rimfire cases' kit that I have, but it gives me some joy to play around with the stuff, and more than that, poking around and seeing what parts were made to tight tolerances and what ones were not, has been an education in it's own right, from the perspective of being able to build my own dies should that ever become my top project on the long list.

Buy them if all you need them for is whangin' away at the range. Or make something generic and make do.

Between the diemaking and toolmaking that will go into making the steel inserts or the swaging dies to do the heavy solid base jackets, you are looking at about three lifetimes worth of different trades specific knowledge to get there from a clean start.

Not a project that I see as getting anywhere, even if you have some experience in the field, access to a very well stocked machine shop, heat treating facility, and production grade automatic presses.
If you have the skills and equipment that makes these projects feasible, you likely enough have the capability to make enough money with those to make shooting factory ammo affordable even in the current environment.

Cheers
Trev

[Nickle]

I swage because I can make better than I can buy, short of custom bullets. Of course, those aren't from 22 rimfire jackets, but from J4 jackets.

I got my equipment when I did due to the shortages and frustration getting bullets.

Now, I also concur that the smart way to do this is to buy pulled surplus M855 bullets. If you swage already, you may be able to "clean them up" a little.

M855 bullets aren't all that accurate, like any other steel core bullet. If they were more accurate, then match bullets would be mostly steel core. I can't think of any good match bullets that are steel core.

For real world use, they aren't enough advantage to warrant putting up with the downsides.

So, ask yourself exactly why you want to make them.

If the answer is "because you can", or "because you want to", then those are valid reasons to make them.

If it's "because they're better" or "that's what will work", you'll find yourself mistaken.

Nobody said it had to make sense. Just saying it ought to be practical.

[nopain_knowpain]

loving the information and the wisdom here, keep it coming. money isnt a huge issue right now, within reason, im currently deployed and ill have a chunk of money to invest into this once i get back. i do like the idea though of getting all the stuff to make simple bullets and wait for the hysteria to die down a bit, this is just mostly asking if its possible and feasible. one thing im noticing however, no one has mentioned anything about MK318 projo's. that was really my main question as to if it could be reasonably done. those little guys are hard to find and then when you do theyre crazy expensive, and yes i know theyre not sub MOA bullets even on the best of days. im just a bit on the inquisitive side and figured ya'll would be the most likely to know about this stuff.

[trevj]

Money is ALWAYS an issue.

The reality is that you will need to spend about 10 grand, if not a whole bunch more, to get yourself set up with the swaging eqipment, machine tools, and assorted other tools and materials, to have a better than average or even average chance of getting anywhere on this.

All to make a couple hundred bucks worth of mediocre bullets, if they turn out pretty much as perfect as the factory stuff.

Pee yer money away if you like, but it seems more of a waste of time to play with the idea. Educate yourself about the processes, essentially you are dealing with production manufacturing technology levels to make jackets/bases from solid copper stock, either with swaging equipment that is FAR beyond home shop level stuff, if you are swaging them or on a turret or CNC lathe, which, to get the levels of accuracy and consistency of product that you would need to match the factory stuff, means investing in some VERY expensive machinery, not to mention buying your stock in quantity (priced 1/4" copper rod?) Then you need to do that all over again to make the penetrator inserts. Then you need the swage dies to put them together. Then you need to keep it all running so that all the parts stay the correct size next time you use them...

The more you learn about this stuff, the worse an idea it becomes.

Cheers
Trev

[Nickle]

Like was said, LOTS of money involved.

Can MK318 bullets be made? I'm certain of it. Is it practical to make them? I highly doubt it.

Now, M262 on the other hand, uses a 75 gr Sierra bullet. Can equivalent bullets be made? Yup.

Can you make BETTER than the ones in MK 262? Yup, sure can. Are they practical? Yup, definitely. Can you see the difference in quality? Depends on your rifle. Somewhat rack grade AR? Nope, not good enough. Match grade AR? Maybe. Factory varmint rifles or custom varmint or match rifles can usually tell the difference.

The bottom line is simple. Making bullets isn't cheap, usually due to the outlay for equipment. I dumped out a fair amount for what I've got, excess of $5,000, will be close to $10,000 when done. But, I shoot a fair amount, and I compete, with rifles that CAN tell the difference in quality. If I don't swage them myself, I tend to use custom hand swaged bullets in these rifles anyways. I may never recoup my cost either.

Not trying to scare anybody off, but I am trying to point out the downsides.

Now the upside. There's a massive amount of self confidence that comes from doing well with stuff you made. In times of shortage, you aren't getting gouged or doing without. Those 2 things are near priceless to some folks.