Single Action revolvers for self-defense?

[Texantothecore]

From my own agency's experience and discussions had with other trainers from around the USA and Canada--it is pretty rare. We DO train to replace a magazine/refill a cylinder at a time when hostilities have abated as a safety measure, but that is apart from an absolute need to do so. That old saw about "2-3 rounds within 2-3 seconds within 2-3 yards" is still quite valid. Except, of course, when it isn't--which isn't real often.

The objective of a defensive shooting is to stop the perp from making the next shot and to leave under your own power. If you succeed you win the Blue Ribbon.

Leaving the area and avoiding a potential gun battle is extremely important.

[meshugunner]

Having had the misfortune to be in several exchanges of gunfire and the good fortune to be on the winning end I have a very flexible view on what works....

Wounds from different handgun rounds are shockingly similar and in most cases a person's pet favorite super-favorite-polymer-tipped-pre-fragmented-bonded-zombie-killing-$3-per-bullet load leaves a wound that is indistinguishable from that other caliber you'd swear wouldn't save you if it went right through their heart....

If you manage to draw your weapon, if it is loaded and functional, if you are able to maintain enough presence of mind to discharge your weapon and strike your target in torso, neck, or head the odds are very good you are going to come out on top.

Well that has always been my own opinion based on no real life experience with civilian encounters. It's good to hear this from someone who's "been there done that" Thank you.

I couldn't resist buying a load of these. Coonan Silver Bullets

$5 ea but that does include the wooden stake for vampires.

[jonp]

Well that has always been my own opinion based on no real life experience with civilian encounters. It's good to hear this from someone who's "been there done that" Thank you.

I couldn't resist buying a load of these. Coonan Silver Bullets

$5 ea but that does include the wooden stake for vampires.

I'm getting some to put in my sweeties stocking at Christmas. She is going to get a charge out of these.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Heard a great story yesterday from a guy at our local gunshow. He said he was former law enforcement from Hawaii and I do not doubt him. Said a nut went up to two officers and tried to shoot them but missed his first shot and his gun jammed. The nut ran and the officers chased him. The nut took cover behind a street sign pole and shot at the officers. Two officers emptied their revolvers and reloaded until empty. 36 rounds. The officers went empty and ran back to their police car. Glass store front windows all round the scene of the shooting. To this day they can't account for most of the rounds. The Chief's statement: "This is why our officers need high capacity guns."

We had a gangsta get in a shooting in our town with a single action a few years ago. Used a Virginian Dragoon. At point blank range he missed -everything. The street was packed with people getting out of a grandstand event and traffic was jammed to a stop. He missed everything and everybody and took off running through the crowd. The newspaper said there were no injuries but that's not true. Our K-9 zeroed in on his fear scent like a heat seeking missle, followed shortly there after by the unmistakeable high pitched "OOoooooch" that K-9 application causes. Now he is in the program for those who flunk Dept of Corrections rehabilitation.

[Hunter]

The single action revolver can be a viable defensive handgun. Is it the best choice? Maybe not but if you are comfortable with it and can use it proficiently I see no reason to carry one.
Look what Bob Mundon could do with his Colt SAA.

[nagantguy]

Have a pair of. aces in my pocket NAA .22 mags. Two of them to back up my primary gun. Do they work? Yep on e on a fishing trip we had it out with two rabid skunks. I'm here they are not.

[Jeff.L]

If it's what you like and your good with it why not!!

[leftiye]

I've always thought (since long before there were DAOs - even dao revolvers) that DA was a handicap, an evil you put up with in a revolver in order to shoot faster. I still think that. DA/SA autos came about to enable faster first shots. ( Funny how fast the cowboy shooters can empty a single action revolver - do not try with a single action auto). Like so much else in our brave new world we now have people rethinking reality and this is the DAO auto. And just like gun control and so much else nowadays we have people singing the praises of illogical things which run counter to common sense and good design. So much that has been done "to get something new (because everything seemed to have been done already). In other words the designers couldn't find an improvement to tout, so they blew smoke up our rectal vents. An austrian who wasn't a gun enthusiast nor a gun designer - a plastics expert - gave us the glock, and folks have been deluding themselves about how well it works ever since.

[Dale53]

[QUOTE=leftiye;2158999]I've always thought (since long before there were DAOs - even dao revolvers) that DA was a handicap, an evil you put up with in a revolver in order to shoot faster. I still think that. QUOTE]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and if your method works for you, then that is all that counts (for you). However, five years of PPC competition and five years of INTENSIVE IPSC competition against some of the best shooters in the Western World (when IPSC was truly a "Martial Art" and not a game) taught me that a double action revolver run by a TRAINED shooter can be a force to be respected, at the very least. A double action revolver has a number of advantages over a single action. After the first shot, a double action revolver will put a good single action shooter in the dust when using "full charge ammo suitable for combat" (not Cowboy mousefart loads). Further, a good double action man (I am NOT talking of a Jerry Miculek or Ed McGivern, either), can use a full charge .357 Magnum or .44 Special (the Skeeter load as an example) to better effect than most any single action trained shooter (again, not talking of some super star but a good trained man).

If I were picking a duty gun, my first choice would be a 1911 (a 100,000 rounds of .45 ACP full charge use in a 1911 by ME has shown me that). On the other hand, my daily carry is a dbl action only S&W Model 642 snub nose simply because I CAN carry without disturbing the masses and the FBI load is a proven fight stopper (not as good as a full house .45 ACP with an expanding bullet, but proven as about the same level of assurance as .45 ACP hardball). My civilian needs are not the same as a LEO. The dbl action revolver will serve me well. I have never had to fire at another person, thank the Lord for that favor) but I have been in situations where the pocket pistol was a comfort, indeed. Adrenalin can run high in ANY and ALL of us in a bad situation and I want any shots I fire to be intentional, not accidental from a light, single action pull.

Another common situation is when sleeping, danger can come calling (I have done a LOT of back packing in wilderness areas, alone, where Mr. Bear has come calling. Again, I do NOT wish to wake up suddenly in the middle of the night in wilderness (OR my own home, for that matter) and, while still a bit groggy, try to handle a light triggered pistol or revolver. At reasonable range, I assure you, I can place my shots with singular effect. I have taken a number of big game animals and most of them have been with a revolver.

I have more than a little experience with single action revolvers and, for a number of reasons, they would NOT be my first (or second) choice as a defensive handgun. On the other hand, I will admit, if that is all that is available to me, I would NOT feel undergunned...

Regardless of which side of the fence you are on, one thing we all need to agree on - by far, the most important thing, when self defense OR hunting is involved, the most important thing is a GOOD HIT, QUICKLY with an adequate load from a gun that IN YOUR HANDS will deliver the goods!

FWIW
Dale53

[BD]

I think Dale pretty much nailed it.
BD

[jasent]

As always practice,practice, practice. Right now a sa is all I own but I put a hundred rounds threw it a week. This is my first pistol. I practice taking quick shots and multiple shots at multiple targets. I haven't had it long but after 700 rounds I've gotten quite comfortable with it. At this point all I can do is improve.

[makicjf]

I have noted and interesting phenomenon in regards to single action pistols vs a 1911 ( in cowboy shooting and wild bunch). Watching videos of myself ( and I am what I would consider an average shooter not lightening fast, proficient, but perhaps a bit more accurate on torso sized targets than the machine gunners) I am a snick faster to the first shot witht the thumb buster and can empty five transitioning between targets in about 3.5 to 4 seconds. Changing pistols takes about a second. with the 1911 I am a bit faster, 2.5 to three seconds for five bewteen targets and can dump 5 in about a second. Reloads take between 1-2 seconds. My overall times are a bit faster with the revovlvers, but one more cycle of five is required with the 1911- I have had a mag lock up the slide once with the 1911, but never had any issue over thousands of rounds with all three rugers I will use. If I am not clearing a house or attacking a squad by myself; my numbers and experience say the revovlvers are just as effective as the slabside and more reliable. I am shooting 230 tc bullets from all at right around 800 fps, maybe a touch more. The 45 acp loads are the lee 230 tc over 5.4 of unique. The 45 colt loads are the same bullet over 8 of unique, but at the request of the range master dropped to 7.5. all loads were legal, but hotter than the others--- the steel would ring!
I am more than comfortable with both, but think the revovlers may be a touch more reliable and are far more diverse-
jmo,
Jason

[shotstring]

As Dale53 alluded to, there is also the recoil difference. With anything but fairly light loads, a single action recoils by lifting up the muzzle to the extent that fast follow-up shots are impossible. I discovered this by shooting bowling pin competitions with both single and double actions revolvers. The double action revolver (I used both a s & w model 25 and a s & w model 29 with full power loads) has the gun recoiling straight back into your palm with less muzzle flip, even without compensator. More painful than shooting a single action, but must faster on 2nd and 3rd shots, etc.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

All this talk about speed in shooting, Clint Smith asks -in all the videos of actual shootings we have seen. Was the problem ever that they were not shooting fast enough?

When law enforcement used revolvers the problem came out that they went empty too fast. Then law enforcement fixed that problem by going to guns that held more boolits. 15 round guns didn't turn out to be the solution.

Elmer Keith said the double action beat the single action, and again I am faster with a 1911 than a SAA on the clock on the drills. Still the single action does place the rounds on target.

[JayinAZ]

Elmer said the SA was the fastest first shot on target, if you needed 2 or more then the DA was faster after one.

[300savage]

a good choice , not the best choice.
but then awareness and a calm and prepared fighting mindset can make a man with a slingshot deadly.

[Bucking the Tiger]

A Ruger Vaquero in .45 Colt would be a good choice. The .45 Colt is a proven killer and the Ruger is a good gun.
Would a double action revolver be faster? Probably after the first 2 or 3.
Do you need an automatic with 17-18 rounds? probably not.
A citizen carrying a handgun for defense is not a cop or a soldier. He is far less likely to get in a shoot out as a cop,and far less likely to take on a quantity of opponents as a soldier.
I carry a .44 Magnum S&W Model 29, 4 inch and use my own cast 230 grain 429421 Keith hollow points. I carry this gun all the time, and I shoot it weekly. I don't feel like I need more "firepower". It feels like an extension on me by now. Best choice? No. Too big. Too much power( though I do reduce loads from hunting speeds).
After all the hair splitting and "what ifs" are done, what you are most at home with will serve you best. I personally would rather carry a big bore revolver( single or double) over a small caliber automatic any day.

[meshugunner]

All this talk about speed in shooting, Clint Smith asks -in all the videos of actual shootings we have seen. Was the problem ever that they were not shooting fast enough?

When law enforcement used revolvers the problem came out that they went empty too fast. Then law enforcement fixed that problem by going to guns that held more boolits. 15 round guns didn't turn out to be the solution...

Yeah really. One well placed hit is worth a whole cylinder of spray and pray, no matter how fast. Cops are generally not good shots. Generally that is, some are very proficient. Having to carry a gun is part of their job but it doesn't make them shooting enthusiasts any more than having to drive a patrol car means they are into cars. If they actually do find themselves in a shootout it will likely be the first one ever and they don't perform much better than civilians.

IMO the most important thing in a SD situation is to be able to present the gun and get a shot on target as rapidly as possible. That means two things, skill in gun handling, drawing and shot placement, and the ability to make a rapid mental transition from peaceful civilian rules to violent confrontation. My own experience with those kinds of situations is that people react too late. It takes too long for them to realize that the rules have changed in an instant. Yes he's really going to kill you. No he will not respond to reason.

All your skill and speed will mean little if you waste seconds coming to the realization that it's really happening now!

[jmort]

"a good choice , not the best choice."

Not exactly. If you shoot one all the time, SASS or whatever, then it is for sure the best choice. A dedicated SASS shooter would be a formidable foe in a typical gun fight.

[Groo]

Groo here
I will throw my 1 1/2 cents in [ you will think it not worth 2]
The important thing in a shootout is to HIT FIRST,all other things are secondary.
What ever you need to do this is fair game .
The next thing is to NOT hit anyone else.
I have been an LE for over 30 years and pulled my gun 3 times, never fired it. [except on animals and that does not count]
I have been to Thunder Ranch , Lethel force, and the state schools shot IPSC and hunt with a handgun.
The "modern" form of shooting aka Doubletap,speed reloads,etc all came about due to the use of smaller guns. [32,38 9mm]
These guns had less slap [a Keith term for impact] than the 40+cal rounds and often required more than one shot to Impress the perp.
The smaller rounds will do similar damage to the insides of the target but do not effect more nerves ,more pain, more slap etc as the
majority of these nerves are in the skin.
This is where the larger bullets tend to work better.[ 40 seems to be the starting point]
Most single actions are of the larger boolit camp.
As to double action / single action debate, ALL shooting should be an excersize in hitting.
We learned and are relearning that the Only time DA should be used is at close range .out to 7 maybe 12 yds,
after which single action is a requirement.. [The Idea is to hit after all]
If you are schooled with a single action, the chances of getting a good hit at what ever range are equal to a DA or auto.
After the first hit , if you impress the target, a second may be applied IF necessary ,we shoot to stop after all.
We are now teaching people to "Empty the gun" ,"Shoot till there down" Aka dare I say it KILL the target.
That may or may be the correct thing to do.
As to the auto, the design was used in war for the following reasons
1 the gun has big parts,and can be made easy to take apart and clean.
2 The gun has no BC gap and does not spit lead. Important when used on horse back as horses do not like getting hit in the neck with
the blast and lead and become gun shy. Some of the first forces issued autos were cav.
In closing Whatever you have with you is better than what is at home. Whatever you can hit the fastest with is better than how many you can
shoot and find the biggest thing you can hit with ,then get the next bigger one and shoot,shoot,shoot.........