Rifle load for 357magnum

[dragon813gt]

I use two powders for my 357s. W231/HP-38 for light and W296/H110 for full house magnum loads. All loads are w/ in the listed ranges from the manuals w/ all weight bullets. Best accuracy is never near the top w/ one exception. That would be a MP 359640. That is my hunting bullet and I push at almost max. It's plain base and there is no leading. I don't have any leading issues w/ or w/out gas checks. Lube used is White Label 2500+. I have a variety of molds and they all work well.

As for feeding issues. My Marlin has a limit to overall length. I'm not at home to check my notes. But if it's over a certain length it will not feed. This causes me to have to select bullets w/ a certain length nose as well.

I have not found a published load that doesn't perform reasonably well. I don't expect MOA at 100 yards w/ a Skinner sight. But they are well w/in minute of deer which is all that matters

[loadedbutbroke]

[QUOTE=dragon813gt;2346689]

As for feeding issues. My Marlin has a limit to overall length. I'm not at home to check my notes. But if it's over a certain length it will not feed. This causes me to have to select bullets w/ a certain length nose as well.

Hello

I too am away at the moment so don't have access to my data. With my pals Armi it will load factory and home loads as long as they are jacketed bullets. Home loads with lead 158grn TC even though it is less than maximum length will not chamber. Neither will un-crimped ammo.

My Uberti on the other hand will seem to take anything even slightly overlong, and in any order or mix. (Lead, jacketed, factory, crimped, slightly crimped, not crimped etc.) fed from the magazine.

If it is of interest I will post my data on the length I reload to and I will measure the diameter of the reloaded lead rounds at the bullet end to see if there is a variation between this and some factory I have now got.

I am afraid I know nothing about Marlins being quite new to this lever gun game, how do they compare chamber wise with the Uberti or original Winchester 73? Could the Armi sport have a tighter chamber and less forgiving feed mechanism?

Adrian

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello again

Not much to report as shooting opportunists are few and far between. However I did shoot last Saturday and got some better results.

7.8 grn Unique with 158grn TC jacketed groups tighter than previous attempts. recoil very satisfactory, much less than Privi factory equivalent. The primer is not completely flattened out and I think the round will easily take a higher load so will try more next time.

6.8 grn Unique with 158grn hard cast lubricated TC. Shot five then put a patch down the bore with a little Brunox. There was a little fouling and a couple of little shiny bits which I take to be lead. (Not big pieces as I have had with home cast .303). group was tighter than before, tried again with some of my 6.4grn loads which are not quite as good but still the same result with the patch. All in all I shot about 30 rounds with little signs of leading. The primers were not flatted out.However i think if I push much faster I will get leading problems

I am getting a little more used to the buck-horn sight but am pretty sure the way to tighten up the groups, apart from improving the ammunition, is to get a better back sight.

[1Shirt]

Hi Loaded, Good thread! I have had the best luck with my 94Win in 357 with the old kieth style 358429 and with 2400 and mag primers. Good accuracy, and would be an adequate deer blt. to 100. Suggest you start with 12 gr. and work up slowly.
1Shirt!

[beefyz]

I would like to share with you something written by one of our respected authors/writers on guns/shooting/handloading, Mike Venturino. In his book, "Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West", he discusses all pertinent information re. these types rifles, including your Uberti replica Winchester '73.( the others being Henrys & model 1866s) He discusses the many fine points of these Italian made replica '73s, and while admitting he has never personally fired a Ubertia made 73 in .357, he points out "something the Italians could not possibly improve upon is the basic strength of these lever gun types. With their toggle link type of lock-up, THEY ARE WEAK (His emphasis)............Under no circumstances should any of these replicas be fired with any sort of smokeless powder ammunition except that loaded to handgun pressure levels. And , that also means the handloader must keep his reloads down to the level that the various manuals list for handguns of standard strength".
I would take this precaution to mean stay away from smokeless loads that have been developed specifically for modern day replicas (Win/Marlin '92s & 94s) using .357 rifle loads or .357 max loads developed in stronger revolvers.

[cwheel]

Looking closely at your spent primers, looks like you have the same problem I had with a .357 Martini. Firing high pressure rounds, the primer flowed back through the firing pin hole in the bolt, sometimes locking up the action and puncturing primers. Like your primers, my primers still didn't show the tell-tail square outside dia. one looks for with over pressure rounds. I consulted with folks that know Martini's well and they told me that the firing pin hole in the bolt was designed for a lower pressure round. The fix ended up welding the bolt face, reducing the dia. of the firing pin hole, and turning down the firing pin to a smaller size and all was well. Here is a clue to what size is proper to a .357, if you have access to a high quality .357 revolver, measure the pin and hole in that. Use caution and remember that after welding the bolt face, heat treating has to be re-done to keep it proper. To just weld and use risks a pressure failure, big safety issue. One thing for sure, 98% chance this is the problem. You can keep this from not being a problem with low pressure rounds, and that would be my first option. As a post script, I think it's likely that the same bolt and firing pin is used in several cals. Most likely it isn't a problem until you get to .357 round that is higher pressure. If you need the measurements, I can help with that. Hope this helped,
Chris

[moorman]

Hi Loaded, good thread btw, fellow countryman and .357 owner here.

I have had good luck with Blue dot and jacketed 158gn from privi, I cautiously loaded from 4gn up to 11.5gn for my marlin 1894 and settled on a reasonably accurate but punchy load, around 10.5gn (1485fps), slight flattening of primer but nothing to set the alarm bells ringing.

I managed to consistently get 2"-3"groups @100yrds off bench+bags, with scope, which I was pleased with. Even managed a rabbit with it @60yrds. I think this little gun is capable of more and with that in mind I have bought (2nd hand snip) an RCBS 35-200-FN gc mould, also have a lee double 158gn mould on the way and a Lee Lube'n'size kit. Im also using cast lyman 158gn RN for 25m plinking loads, havent yet found a sufficiently accurate load with these but then I suffer the same restraints as you, limited range time, free time and weather.

At the moment the only powders I have are Alliant Blue Dot and Unique to play with and as for primers, just have to grab whatever I can. Got some Hornady XTPs on the way to try so plenty of legwork to do but all good fun.

Ultimately I want an accurate round for fox and rabbit, a target load for accuracy@100/200yrds?/ 25yrd plinking, then I can ditch the optics and fit a Skinner/Williams Peep.
I bought the rifle for versatile cheap fun with my two sons but this little gun has taken me on a journey of load development, chronographing, barrel slugging, casting, gas checks, cast boolit forum, marlinowners forum, hunting and fun.....I love it! Just a shame its not deer legal here, keep us posted, moorman

[loadedbutbroke]

Hi all,

Wow again, a lot of ideas here, I have been away so have not had the opportunity to look at everything people have commented on. Good to see I am not the only one from the UK who looks at this excellent boolits site.

There are more comments on the issue of the strengths of the mechanism of the 1873. I see a dichotomy for of course the gun is made for .357 and 44 X 40 and 45 long colt all quite powerful rounds in there own right. You will all know more about them than I do.

What i will do when I get the chance is talk to the UK importer of these rifles and check what the manufacturer and they have to say.

In the meantime I might well be shooting again tomorrow and will take some slightly raised load rounds. 100yrds.

I shall keep you posted
Adrian

[robg]

i use 11.5 g 2400 with 195g gas checked bullet 1250fps 2inch groups at 100yards or 13.5g 2400 165g gas checked 1500fps groups well for a med load 8.5g true blue 165g gas checked / sorry bullets from rcbs moulds/havent chronied but i expect 1200fps

[dromia]

The rifle is proofed to 357 specs so any load within that should be safe in that rifle.

I'm currently playing with a Uberti Low wall in .357 magnum shooting out to 200 yrds, I think you are asking a lot from the round to get consistent accuracy at 300 yrds. The boolit choice is key for distance shooting. I am currently using an RCBS 200 gn gas checked boolit cast from range scrap and roof flashing and BHN around 11-12, a hard alloy is not necessary and can be counter productive but getting the boolit to fit the throat/bore/groove of the rifle is.

My go to powder is Vihtavuori N350 for this round worked up to a maximum of 6 gns with this boolit for a velocity of just under 1200 fps, BTW to my mind studying primers is a futile way of gauging pressure it as effective as studying sheep's entrails just a bit more user friendly. I'm also having some success with Ramshot Enforcer powder working up to 9.5 gns for just under 1300 fps. Both of these powders are readily available in the UK.

Seating depth has a big effect on pressures in this cartridge and will be defined by the throat of your rifle.

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello again

Progress has been made! Please forgive the length of this post but there is a lot of ground to cover. I have divided it into four parts to try to incorporate all the concerns and suggestions that fellow shooters have made: the question of the strength of the mechanism; the results of my latest shoot; the issue of the primers; and, finally, where I go from here with this gun and load.

Strength of the 1873 Winchester mechanism

People were quite right to raise this as a concern and so I spoke to the importer (to the UK, who are also gunsmiths ). They confirm that the Uberti copies are intended for use with the equivalent factory pistol loads. They (the importers) are also aware that many people do develop their own loads for this rifle and sometimes they overdo it and ruin the rifle by buckling the toggles and, in some cases, bending the frame to such an extent that the side panels will not fit. However you can overload anything if you try hard enough!

For obvious legal reasons they cannot and will not comment on alternative loads for the 73.

Similarly the manufacturer would have to issue a health warning with the 1873 if it was not capable of handling the pistol loads for which it is designed.

However, people do reload for this gun all the time perfectly safely. I believe the fun and skill of reloading is to develop effective safe rounds which need not even be as 'hot' as factory pistol rounds. In fact, I would suggest that some pistol rounds might almost be too hot for the 73 especially if you keep hammering away with them, over time anything will wear with punishment (see Primers below).

By using a much slower powder such as Unique/Lil-gun/2400/N130 I can only see that you are reducing the very fast pressure build-up experienced by using fast powders and factory ammunition and are therefore taking some of the pressure off the bolt mechanism of the rifle (depending on load, of course). In this way, I would suggest higher velocities can be achieved without putting excessive strain on the gun. To look at this in reverse, if you were to take a .303 case and fill it with Bullseye to achieve 2,500fps, the Lee Enfield would probably blow up even though it has a very strong bolt/lug arrangement. I have somewhere seen a graph which demonstrates the difference in pressure build-up between fast and slow powders.

I think the condition of the gun is also very important. My rifle is in very good condition and I inspected the toggle arrangement carefully to see how tight it was; it's like new. On the other hand, another secondhand rifle I looked at had been abused with a fairly loose mechanism which had burrs built up on the edges of the bearing surfaces of the toggles where they meet when fully closed. Further, the left hand toggles were worse than the right, which were rubbing badly on the inside of the side plate where they were flopping about.

Disclaimer. I discuss loads below, some of which may appear to exceed published data. However no one no matter how experienced should rely on these loads without working up there own examples in the approved way. Your gun and your loads are entirely your responsibility


Latest results, reloaded brass with 158grn Jacketed truncated cone. Always Unique powder.



The above picture shows the cases from my last shoot. The three on the left are Privi Factory with 158 grn lead bullets. The recoil from these was easily the sharpest and heaviest of all rounds shot. The primers have not really flattened out but are just beginning to flow. I used these to sight in at 100 yards before starting with the reloads. Fairly accurate.

The next three are 158grn jacketed in front of 7.8grn Unique. Least recoil, accurate; the CCI primer is begining to flatten out; no evidence of the primer starting to flow.

The next three are as before but with 8grn Unique. Recoil slightly up; nice accuracy (got a couple of bulls). The primer is pretty much the same as the lower load.



This picture shows the next three increase in load. The first is 8.2, second 8.4 and third 8.6 Unique. The results are pretty much the same as the previous two loads with no appreciable rise in elevation. There is a slight increase in the flow of the primer. The cases in the picture are, of course, much magnified which I think makes the primers look worse than they really are. Nothing here to worry me at all.

Of the rounds made, I think my preference is for the 8grn as the others show no appreciable improvement in performance. I will keep them, however, to try at 200 yards.



The third picture above shows the bullets I have been using to reload. The first cartrige is the lead Privi. The second my jacketed round referred to above and the third my lead round referred to below.

Incidentally, the cleanup was easy and showed no evidence of unburnt powder. There was a tiny amount of lead showing on the first run through of the patch, I assume from the Lead Privi I used as sighters.


Primers/overpressure

When reloading I have always been very observant when it comes to the condition of the primer after firing. I wish I had not clouded the issue in my earlier posts with details of my friend's gun (the Armi sport) and the problem he seems to be having with the jacketed Privi ammunition. (I think we are all agreed there is something wrong with the striker.) My latest higher loaded rounds do not show any signs of overpressure at the primer. However, the factory Privi 158 hard lead do show the beginnings of the brass case starting to flow into the striker aperture. I conclude from this that the pressure from the factory load is greater than the pressure from the home loads which are shooting well at this range.

Of course, there could be other factors affecting the result, for example the thickness of the primer material; how deeply the primers are set. Possibly the Prvi primers have moved back a little even though they are painted in (all that red which makes it hard to see well in the photos), etc.

Development

I now feel quite happy with my jacketed loads - for the time being anyway - but will test further and, if necessary, try another powder, possibly the Lil-gun

For my hard cast commercial lead bullets (158grn) I have found 6.8grn to be pretty good so I am going to load at 6.6grn as I am slightly concerned about leading. Unfortunately I have no way of measuring the velocity but my RCBS reloading book reckons about 1,300fps with a semi wad cutter at this load (working it out from the data provided, as near as I can) for a .357 mag rifle. More testing to be done.

Next, of course, is casting my own which I have tried but have had problems with hardness of the lead but, following a helpful post earlier on, have now obtained the relevant pencils to start to work out what lead I have got. I also need a heavier bullet, I think, so another mould etc. is going to have to be sourced.

Getting decent range time is still a problem and I am aware that I need to test the grouping of the rounds to be sure I am achieving accuracy. The last time I shot the hard cast lead I was achieving a reasonable group at 25 yards about 2"-3" from a rest with the original buck-horn sight.

I hope I have covered all the points that fellow shooters have raised and look forward to your comments.

Adrian

[robg]

bevel base lead do tent to be innacurate compared to flat base bullets. gas checked lead dosnt need to be very hard to shoot well

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello Dromia

I think we may have corresponded before on the Victorian Rifleman over another straight-sided if not slightly larger round, the .577 Snider. Forgive me if I have the wrong Pukka Bundhook.

Thank you for your thoughts on this cracking little .357 round that I am just getting to grips with. Your post and my last one must have crossed as it took me so long to get it out. A shame in a way because we cover some of the same ground. However, below is my response to some of your points.

[QUOTE]

The rifle is proofed to 357 specs so any load within that should be safe in that rifle.

Agreed

I'm currently playing with a Uberti Low wall in .357 magnum shooting out to 200 yrds, I think you are asking a lot from the round to get consistent accuracy at 300 yrds.

Again I agree;I think I was being a little overambitious with 300 yards but, now that I understand the round better, I will make 200 yards my goal (a distance I tend to shoot a lot at Bisley) for which, as you say, a heavier bullet would be better.

BTW to my mind studying primers is a futile way of gauging pressure it as effective as studying sheep's entrails just a bit more user friendly.

Here, I am afraid, we disagree. Mind, I have never studied a sheeps' entrails to check your comparison!! Is this some sort of Scottish practice? I'll ask the wife (from Dunfermline ).

I have always been led to believe the primer can tell you a lot and be a good indicator of impending problems. I have always paid attention to it with my home loads and have not been disappointed yet. On the other hand, small pistol primers due to their size would appear to more difficult to read than large rifle.

Seating depth has a big effect on pressures in this cartridge and will be defined by the throat of your rifle.

I see your point here but with the 1873, unlike the Low wall, you are restricted in the overall length of the load by the loading mechanism. I already have my bullets seated out as far as practical. Also I am of course restricted to flat points.

Kind regards
Adrian

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello robg

bevel base lead do tent to be innacurate compared to flat base bullets. gas checked lead dosnt need to be very hard to shoot well

I take your point. Unfortunatly the commercial bullets in my picture on my last post were the best I could get at the time. Is your concern that the beveled bullets do not obdurate as well as flat base?

I am going to try for a new mould for a heavier boolit as others are recomending and take this flat base issue into account.

I have never had much luck with gas checks. Either sourcing them or fitting them. Which combination of bullet and check do you think best and where do you get your GC's?

Adrian

PS I only have the very basic Lee sizing kit and use Luiquid Alox.

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello excess650

If you're concerned about pressure excursions, avoid powders that burn more quickly than 2400. Try 4227, H110/WW296, AA1680, etc. I would only load Unique for moderate loads and faster burning powders for light loads.

[/QUOTE]

I agree and now having had more experience with this small round and having gone through all that you will see in my last post I am going to slow up my powder. Quite a few seem to use 2400 and otheres this Lil-gun. N130 has also been recomended to me.

In a way it is a shame that Uniqe was recommended to me in the first place but I suppose we all have to start somewhere!

Regards
Adrian

[robg]

hello loaded i cast my bullets using rcbs 158 swc gc & 180 rcbs sil mold gc .use hornaday gcs most shops can get them or use midway.just use a lee 10lb pot add some led free solder to scrap lead. about 300 an hour . its addictive!

[robg]

i use same lee sizer & lee liquid lube . itworks well & seats gas checks fine

[dromia]

Here, I am afraid, we disagree. Mind, I have never studied a sheeps' entrails to check your comparison!! Is this some sort of Scottish practice? I'll ask the wife (from Dunfermline ).

I have always been led to believe the primer can tell you a lot and be a good indicator of impending problems. I have always paid attention to it with my home loads and have not been disappointed yet. On the other hand, small pistol primers due to their size would appear to more difficult to read than large rifle.

Kind regards
Adrian

Well I wish you continued good luck using primers as a pressure indicators especially if you are working up to near maximum loads, if so then you are an accident waiting to happen.

There are so many variables in relation to primers and so many reasons for the cause of the condition of fired primers other than pressure, compounded by the fact that there is no constant base line, means that it is a very dubious and potentially dangerous way of assessing a rounds pressure.

At best a primer condition may tell you that there is something wrong but that need not necessarily be pressure.

Still it is your gun, your ammunition and your life to do with as you will so long as it doesn't impinge on others.

[loadedbutbroke]

Hello dromia

Thank you for your comments

There are so many variables in relation to primers and so many reasons for the cause of the condition of fired primers other than pressure, compounded by the fact that there is no constant base line, means that it is a very dubious and potentially dangerous way of assessing a rounds pressure.

At best a primer condition may tell you that there is something wrong but that need not necessarily be pressure.

I agree with you that there are other variables in relation to primers and if you look at some of my other posts I do acknowledge this.

Of course, there could be other factors affecting the result, for example the thickness of the primer material; how deeply the primers are set. Possibly the Prvi primers have moved back a little even though they are painted in (all that red which makes it hard to see well in the photos), etc.

And to this should add the condition of the striker the striker aperture etc as detailed elsewhere on the thread.

The point I was trying to make albeit a bit clumsily was that pressure could be the cause of the primers distorting and therefore be showing a potential problem.

If I have given the impression that I would only rely on the primer as an indicator of over-pressure then I am sorry, however I hoped that other detail of the way I worked loads up would have indicated how cautious I am when it comes to reloading and building up a round for which there seems to be little published information for rifle as opposed to pistol.

I think the most dangerous thing would be to ignore what the primer is telling us for what ever reason.

Kind regards

Adrian