Lets talk Stainless media

[Love Life]

Alrighty Gents. Lets talk stainless media. While it does an outstanding job of cleaning brass, myself, and many others have noticed that it also peens case mouths.

I have done a good bit of testing with the brass with peened mouths, and I have noticed no substantial negative effects shooting to 400 yards. Of course I am shooting from a bag on the ground in the prone position, so that may be why!! A benchrest shooter would be able to give a more definitive thumbs up or down on peened case mouths.

Now peened case mouths are no issue if the brass still needs to be trimmed. The trimming/chamfer/deburring procedure eliminates that. The bad part is if you want to SS clean again you get peened case mouths. Frowny face ensues.

Now looking at the available medias for brass cleaning, it seems SS is the one that does the best to clean inside, outside, and primer pockets.

Follow me here.

What if you were to use different shapes besides just the SS Pin?

http://www.kramerindustriesonline.co...steel-shot.htm

The above link has several different shapes of SS media, and I'm thinking the Diagonals, cones, and ovalballs would still give the same great cleaning effects without peening the case mouths. The only drawback I see is that it may not clean the primer pockets as well, and wount clean the flash hole (if that really matters).

So for all of the stainless media cleaning champions on the board, what do you think? Is the SS pin the best option, or is it just the most available and possibly cheapest option?

Has anybody experimented with different types of SS media?

[Catshooter]

LL,

How much peening are you getting? And is it with all brass? Maybe I should be paying more attention but I haven't noticed any peening.


Cat

[phil3333]

how long of a cycle are you running? what is your media ss pin ratio?

[blikseme300]

The peening is from brass against brass and not from the SS media. The physics is simple as the SS pins are way too light to be doing the peening. Too much brass in the tumbler causes more wear on the case mouths as the tumbling time is much longer than when less brass is done. Too long a running time will have the same effect.

[Stampede]

This happens with “every kind” of tumbling and/or media combination. Especially when you filled up the drum up to the max. It’s a combination of to much media- to much brass- to long tumbling and/or to fast spin cycle.

In fact this "can" happen in a view minutes or even up to several hours. It’s most likely that this happened when you have to much brass tossed in the drum or when the tumbler spins to fast (or a combination of the two).

The steel pins (or what ever shape) are not the cause, I also use ceramic media and it also happens with this stuff. The rotating action is different than a vibration action and therefore is occurs with rotating tumblers primairly.

This is why my one and only reason is that I prep the case mouths and also the primer pockets “after” tumbling/cleaning. It’s not the steel pins that causes the damage but the cases them self who bump/slam in to each other.

I use industrial size 450 Litre rotating tumblers, vibrating tumblers and 30 Litre sonic cleaners on a daily basses (I own and run an industrial production plant/facility) and it is a science on it self how to proper clean and polish objects. For a regular “Do It Your Self Consumer” it’s a matter of trial and error what works the best.

Unfortunately most equipment, media and cleaners/solvents do not come with “proper” instructions. What most people don’t know that certain temperature-media-cleaner/solvent combinations are ruining your brass on a molecular level (weakening your brass). Not even to mention the use of a sonic cleaner vs. gun parts (especially springs), some reloading manufactures offer special cleaners for guns but “all” fail to mention that certain metals and plastics (parts) are “NEVER-EVER” suitable for cleaning with a sonic cleaner. It’s a matter of sales and the use of the customer his ignorance or lack of experience!

The problem you described is a prime example of what I mentioned above about the lack of proper instructions/warnings.

Stampede

[bobthenailer]

I now only use the jewelers mix , i tried the .040x.250 pins and they are a PITA to use just to small in dia and inferior to the jewelers mix in my opinoin! i usually tumble from 1/2 hr to 1 hr max , I only fill my drums no more than 1/2 way with brass and pins and then fill with water & some Joy DWS & a touch of lemon juice.

[Love Life]

Hmmm. Interesting. I am using 25 lbs of pins to 23 pounds of brass. I am using the Bigg Dawg tumbler with the largest drum. It is a pretty fast rotating machine, and I run for 2 hours. If I run less than 2 hours than the brass does not come out 100% squeaky clean.

***. It's not like I can put less brass in there. I have certain production requirements that I have to meet.

As said the peening doesn't really matter on unprocessed brass. It just hurts the processed. Mebbe I need to SS clean before processing, and then just CC tumble after processing to remove case lube.

Did you have a Bigg Dawg Phil? If so did you experience the same thing?

Stampede- Thank you for the information. I would love to hear more, because as you said, insturctions are limited. They sound about like this: Put pins in tumbler, fill to neck, fill with water, add some citric acid and dawn dish soap.

That is pretty much it. I wonder if the paddles in the drum may be causing issues as well?

[phil3333]

no bigdawg unit for me but one that is very similar I didn't but I don't use rotary tumblers
to clean off the lube or finish my brass

[Love Life]

Yeah. I need to reverse things on the prepped stuff. SS clean first, then prep, then clean in corn cob. The crappy part is, for my personal use, that means I can only SS clean once. That is during the initial prep. I wonder if a slower RPM would help? Hmmmm. To the drawing board!!!

[sparky45]

Make yourself another drum without any paddles. It's just as effective in cleaning, at least that's what I've been told. BTW, I am using a homemade Bigdawg rig that Bigdawg talked me through the construction. This was before he started selling the tumblers.

[phil3333]

I don't put agitators in my drums they are unnecessary,I tried to inform others of this
but few believed me. I don't know if there is a correlation between paddles and peening
brass but I haven't noticed it in my brass

[nanuk]

I want to get some SSTM

what I have read is peening is caused by not enough fill in the barrel, allowing the brass to hit each other too fast.

the answer was to fill the container more... ratios I don't remember.


has anyone else done testing?

[phil3333]

I would have to say that isn't my experience, the standard ratio is 50-50 but I don't
run that much ss pins and I sell them

[1hole]

"...insturctions are limited. They sound about like this: Put pins in tumbler, fill to neck, fill with water, add some citric acid and dawn dish soap."

That's because it isn't critical.

Acid, either citric or vinegar is cheap and works fine and acids eat the surface dulling oxides.

Soap is a surfactant that lets the water cut through the light interior carbon and soften it so the media can rub it off.

The media material itself isn't critical. Short steel wire pins are the right density and shape to rub off the water softened carbon inside the case walls and primer pockets.

Stainless wire is ... well, stainless; meaning it won't rust.

Tub paddles are largely meaningless, all that needs doing is to roll the cases and media until you get the right end result.

If you're rolling your cases so fast they fall back to peen you're spinning way too fast for the ratio of cases to media.

[Love Life]

There is no filling my drum any fuller. It is jam packed with 23 lbs of 308 brass so that isn't the problem.

The cleaning is not an issue. I have that one figured out.

[Stampede]

Okay here is a picture of the steel media that I use. On the left are "large" satellites (3,3mm x 2,8mm) I use these for hard/tough cleaning jobs and they clean the "large" primer pockets as well (not the small ones). On the right is my "golden mix", this I my own developed mix. It consists of small and large satellites, pins, round shot and small flat plates

This is mix derived from hundreds of tests trying all sorts of steel media. This combo does the job in about 15 to 20 minutes of tumbling about: 200 rounds .45ACP , or 100 rounds .45-70, or 175 rounds of .44magnum just to give you an example. Nothing gets stuck in flash holes, primer pockets or the case mouth. My first tries caused pins stuck in the flash holes and the satellites stuck in the case mouth. So the correct size and shape does the trick. Damages only happen when you do fill up the drum with to much brass or a to high speed. I use at home an old RCBS Sidewinder to clean the brass.

This mix does not damage any kind of brass and does not need hours of tumbling. Even very dirty brass that is fired with Black Powder is an easy job but could take about 10 minutes more. Note I don't pre clean the brass. This cleaning media (soap) is a highly concentrated industial cleaner that does not damage the Brass. It's the same stuff sold by RCBS, Lyman and Hornady but they sell a highly diluted form (to prevent any trouble by misuse by the average guy at home).

[doulos]

There was a very long thread about this subject on Shiloh.com a while back. These BPCR guys have been using Thumblers Tumblers for years with ceramic media. And many have been using STM for a while. I believe many of them are converting their tumblers with slower rpm motors and the peening problem disappeared.

[Stampede]

So apparently I'm not the only one that tells to tumble at a low or modest rate/speed. The ceramic media does work, but you can buy ceramic media in all sorts of grades and sizes (just like steel shot). You can buy ceramic media that wears out pretty fast up to a grade that is so hard and tough that it "really" bad for your brass. There is stuff out there that look and work awesome but can ruin your brass in a matter of minutes. So do acquire some more info about the ceramic media before you buy it. The ceramic stuff that Lyman sells for moly coating bullets is not the best one for cleaning jobs (the shape is not good and it's to "soft").

Did you know that there is surface cleanling treatment that is called: Shotpeening. What do think what might happen if you use your tumbler & media in the wrong way! (pretty much the same thing on small scale).

Here is a link where I buy my (industrial) tumblers and media. Visit the site, select the language to English. Select: PRODUCTS, than Select: Vibratory Finishing and be astonished about the huge selection of media. I guess that most companies that sold you the machines and or media did not inform you about what you "actually" need. This company supplies Norma, RWS, Winchester Europe, Lapua and SIG, H&K Europe, Beretta with their media when I'm told correctly. In fact due to SIG I came in contact with these guys in 1991 and I'm a happy customer.

http://www.rosler.com/startseite/

They have a dealer in the USA:
RÖSLER Metal Finishing USA L.L.C.
1551 Denso Road
MI 49037 Battle Creek
USA

Stampede

[gunoil]

speed is what peens brass. This machine, home made is great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_FpiTzVYP8

[montana_charlie]

There is no filling my drum any fuller. It is jam packed with 23 lbs of 308 brass so that isn't the problem.

I have some 'experience', but can't claim any real 'expertise'.
However, I think your drum is too full.

The media needs room to 'flow' as the turning drum makes it 'roll' like a gentle surf at the beach.
Then, the amount of media needs to be enough to 'encapsulate' the brass so it is always being 'scrubbed' as the media 'flows'.

I get good action with my drum (not more than) 2/3 full, and the brass is roughly equal in volume to the media.

My liquid barely equals the depth of the media/brass in the drum.

So, again, no specific numbers because your equipment is different than mine.
But, if you must know, the capacity of my '12-pound' drum is 18 cups, 3 cups (four pounds of ceramic) media, and up to fifty 45/90 cases. I add a cup and a half of liquid.

If you can't reduce the drum contents and still meet 'production requirements', you need more tumblers, or bigger ones.

CM