Richard Lee's "system" of matching cartridge pressure to metal pressure.

[462]

Used the formula for some early handgun load developement, but the results showed that it was a waste of my time, efforts, and components.

That said, if someone is inclined to try the formula, please do so. But, in the end, it all comes back to the all-important "Fit is king".

[8mmFan]

Holy Castboolits! Thanks for all of the responses, guys. Wasn't what I expected, but that's why I asked... I figured that the real world experience here would essentially confirm the process as sound. About 3rd of you agree with it, but 2/3 of you don't.

I'll just keep casting and shooting until I get it right, using the hardness tester as just another tool. Thanks again, and have a great day. 8mmFan

[Doc Highwall]

The hardness tester has it's value. It will enable you to determine the hardness but not the alloy composition.
If you have lots and lots of wheel weights and melt say 100 pounds and use it to make your alloy, check what it’s hardness is along after you melt it into ingots, with the actual indent size and record it.
Then check the hardness of your alloy and record the hardness and indent size again. This will be useful when you go to make another batch or to change the hardness of your alloy.

Just remember to write down every thing and keep in in a safe place.

[rintinglen]

^Not in a shed--with a leaky roof.

[fecmech]

I'm glad I never read it when I started casting, it would have made problems for me.

[DrCaveman]

I'm glad I never read it when I started casting, it would have made problems for me.

Interesting observation. I think it also led me in sort of the wrong direction at first, and because it came from a published, long-standing player (Lee Precision) in the world of cast boolits, i took it as uber-reliable and something of an end-all. How things have changed.

the quick and ready answers i found here contradicted the Lee theory at worst, and expanded upon it at best. Then my application of the techniques and general approaches provided by these guys showed me that CASTBOOLITS has far more current and useful information about how to make a lead projectile fly at 2000+ fps with deadly accuracy.

Consequently i regained my college-borne attitude of questioning anything IN PRINT. Then this cynicism moved along to make me question SOME of the answers/solutions provided here, by non-published sources who may or may not know what they are talking about. Noone here has ever steered me 'wrong' exactly but one has to choose which train of thought they are going to follow.

Like a fella here likes to say, separating the wheat from the chaff is invaluable. And easier said than done.

Mostly wheat here, in my experience though. To 8mmfan, if your path goes anything like mine has, you will find alloy manipulation/hardness to be an issue which wont really rear its head for a while. So many other issues need to be tested and sorted out first. I finally have just settled on one alloy for everything, and adjust boolit size, seating depth, lube and powder charge to find my sweet spot. Im only about a year and a half in to casting.

Maybe in the next few months, if i can finally settle on some really promising loads, i will tinker more with alloy, but for now that is the least of my concerns. Fwiw my general purpose alloy runs about 15 bhn, air cooled. Works without leading from 500 fps 38 spl loads up to 2100 fps 30-30 loads, as long as fit is right.

[303Guy]

DrCaveman, do you know exactly (or more or less) what your alloy composition is?

I did a test today with the idea that alloy strength effects how well a boolit upsets to fit the bore and how it over-upsets to slump the nose. Boolit base deformation is also a consideration (especially for me since I don't want to use gas checks and I want 2000 fps!)

[geargnasher]

Richard and John Lee's method of loading to a peak pressure that is just higher than the yield strength, but below the ultimate compressive strength of a given alloy in a given gun actually works to quickly achieve an accurate load, and works reliably. I've tried it with numerous alloys in just about every gun I own, to very good effect assuming that static and dynamic fit is at least decent. I'd go so far to say that it's actually just about foolproof, which can be a valuable thing to a newbie.

HOWEVER, I find it just about useless for anything other than plinking loads, and have made a practice of totally ignoring it. Anybody that shoots pure lead or mild lead/tin alloy with black powder knows better than to try to limit pressure to ultimate compressive strength.

FIT is King, particularly dynamic fit.

I routinely load to three times the ultimate compressive strength of my alloys in rifles and when things are right, I get stellar results. They DO have to be right, though, and making them so is a lot more tricky than using Lee's method.

Gear

[303Guy]

I routinely load to three times the ultimate compressive strength of my alloys in rifles and when things are right, I get stellar results.

That is in line with a theory of mine - that the pressure needs to be low enough not to slump the nose but perhaps should be high enough to obturate the boolit to just before the ogive. Anyway, I'm still working on it. I somehow have to determine alloy strengths.

[44man]

Pilgrim has said it, I am also allergic to work and if I had to do real work to make my guns shoot I would buy ammo.
Then it hit me yesterday when my friend bought a S&W .500 he found for a good price. He said factory loads are $60 for 20 rounds. We can take that to 12 to 15 cents a shot instead of $3.
He is coming to cast with my mold but he can't find brass yet so we will shoot JRH out of it. Those are 10 cents a shot.
Boolits are and always will be best, just a little work to start, then it gets so easy you can get as lazy as I am.

[Doc Highwall]

One thing in the LEE book but again he does not come out and state it is, if you look at the section with cast bullets for the 30-30, 308, 30/06 is the velocities you are able to achieve by changing the burning rate of the powder.

Here on cast boolits it has been mention many times about using a slower burning powder with a long barrel to get higher velocities with a soft alloy.

[shredder]

Boolit fit is more important than hardness

Pure gold there friend, pure gold.

[DrCaveman]

DrCaveman, do you know exactly (or more or less) what your alloy composition is?

I did a test today with the idea that alloy strength effects how well a boolit upsets to fit the bore and how it over-upsets to slump the nose. Boolit base deformation is also a consideration (especially for me since I don't want to use gas checks and I want 2000 fps!)

303guy

My best description of the alloy is: started with about 100 lb COWW. Added prob 1 lb of 50/50 solder while smelting. Have recovered maybe 50% of boolits made with that original alloy, and mixed with new ingots made from magnum shot. Also a decent amount of recovered 22lr boolits and jacketed range scrap. Pretty randomized at this point.

I add a little more 50/50 solder when the moulds aren't filling out after temp is reached. So I think I am back pretty close to WW +1-2% tin, due to the antimony in the magnum shot and pure lead from various sources mentioned. I really do need to test the hardness again to see where I am actually at. This won't tell me the toughness of course, but will give me an idea.

I'm reading your other thread with interest. Fwiw I haven't yet been able to approach 2000 fps with accuracy without a gas check. But I also haven't dove into paper patching yet. I have a few twisted up, sitting on my loading bench, saying "shoot me"

[NVScouter]

The other bit is this:

So Mr.Lee has this awesome solution that works on everything (many claims like this in the book), and he wrote his own reloading book with lots of talk about cast. He is also one of the major suppliers of boolit molds in the world. Why isnt that data in your book? There are more references to Lyman molds then LEE molds...............

[Doc Highwall]

LEE started by making basically entry level reloading equipment that a person who did not have a lot of money could afford to get into reloading. They have expanded a lot since then and to help promote his reloading equipment, he came out with his book that contains data from other manufactures.

LEE has added to his book by giving us the math as to how he comes to these conclusions regarding pressure for light loads.

[8mmFan]

"I routinely load to three times the ultimate compressive strength of my alloys in rifles and when things are right, I get stellar results. They DO have to be right, though, and making them so is a lot more tricky than using Lee's method."

WOW!!!!!!!!!!! Is that only with a gas check?

Sounds like slow burners and long barrels is a good combo. My Yugoslav M48 bolt action 8x57 has a 23.25 inch barrel, I believe. Not super long, but I've no doubt we'll get some good cast loads out of her. She is pure Black Death on muleys and coyotes, but so far only w jacketed bullets. I am mainly casting for practice ammo with my 45, and practice ammo for this and one other rifle. Really want to take a deer this fall with a cast bullet from this rifle.

Thanks for the great insight, all of you. 8mmFan

[Larry Gibson]

Richard and John Lee's method of loading to a peak pressure that is just higher than the yield strength, but below the ultimate compressive strength of a given alloy in a given gun actually works to quickly achieve an accurate load, and works reliably. I've tried it with numerous alloys in just about every gun I own, to very good effect assuming that static and dynamic fit is at least decent. I'd go so far to say that it's actually just about foolproof, which can be a valuable thing to a newbie.

HOWEVER, I find it just about useless for anything other than plinking loads, and have made a practice of totally ignoring it. Anybody that shoots pure lead or mild lead/tin alloy with black powder knows better than to try to limit pressure to ultimate compressive strength.

Gear

Agree 100%, especialy the enboldened part.

Larry Gibson

[w0fms]

I'm glad I found this thread. I recently picked up his book and found it to be an entertaining read. However, the little bit I've done so far with cast boolits and some of my training as an engineer made me think he's a little... well.. opinionated.. I didn't buy the premise of the formulas. Still it is probably the most entertaining of all of the reloading books I've ever read. It did make me think in terms of pressure and not just BHN so I suppose that was a good exercise in and of itself.

[303Guy]

... cast boolits and some of my training as an engineer ...

w0fms, would you mind joining me on my thread on matching alloy strength and pressure with your engineering training? I'm sure you can give us better insight. It was this thread that motivated me to do a test.

[topper88]

Mr. Lee's theory's really led me to this site. Luckily I started with the .30-30 and using his charts and a commercial cast with a gas check I worked up to the maximum suggested pressure and it worked, perfectly. That load was 33 gr. of BL(c)2 under a 160 gr. GC cast bullet about 18 BHN. So I thought I could repeat it in my other Handi-Rifles in other calibers. No such luck and I ended up here. Last summer I acquired the 7mm Soup Can and the .22 Bator. I just got most of the other tools I need and only need gas checks to try some of the loads I have gleaned from this site. Just today at the range I shot a box of that old .30-30 load and it still gives 1" groups at a hundred yards. Besides teaching me about pressure it introduced the idea of slower powders for cast. Lyman advocates faster powders and the latest book has a mix. I now view Mr. Lee's writings as a challenge to Lyman and the status quo on cast loads. Now I will be trying a mix of fast and slow powders to see what works best. I don't think I will ever top the .30-30 load. I realize now it's that particular barrel and the cartridge that lead to the success. This was my first post after lurking for 3-5 years. Felt great.