Lil Gun in Rifles/Closed Breech Firearms

[TCLouis]

There was much discussion about throat damage using Lil Gun in revolvers.

Is that a non issue in a rifle or closed breech gun like a Contender.

Lil Gun does seem to coax the maximum performance out of many loads.

[SciFiJim]

I wouldn't mind an answer to this myself. I have two pounds of it but stopped using it in my .357 lever rifle. Until I find a definitive answer, it will sit in the powder cabinet.

[runfiverun]

the throat erosion is attributed to flame temp of the burning powder.
make up your own minds if it affects all throats or just revolvers.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill tell you this about it. I too gave up on it as a handgun powder and figured id burn up the 5lbs i had left in rifles. At the time i was doing load developement on my 50 beowolf ar15. I saw that alexander arms load data about centered on lilgun so i loaded some up using there data. I went to the range with that ammo and some i had loaded with wc297. I shot both for groups and both did equaly well. When i was done I had around 20 of each left over. So i loaded up some clips and cut loose with it shooting as fast as i could get on target. After 7 rounds with lilgun you could about light a cigeretted off the barrel. 7 rounds with 297 and you could still carry the gun by the barrel without burning your hand. I said no more and gave the rest of it away.

[uscra112]

I would have taken it all and gladly.

[Doc Highwall]

Reminds me of what was said about HiVel#2.

[Ed K]

I'm not going to worry about it in a Contender Hornet barrel. I understand a revolver or semi-auto may be a different matter...

[M-Tecs]

I was not aware of this. Looks like I have 8lbs to burn up in my Hornet. 4,300 rounds should be a good test to see what the throat looks like when the powder is gone.

[handyman77]

Lloyd---you convinced me---thanx

[xacex]

I have 4 pounds of Lil gun right now that I use in 300 blackout, and the 50 Beowulf. Both of these guns are in the AR platform of rifles, and cant say I have had a problem with the powder. Why would a powder heat up a barrel more than another if the burn rate is similar, with a similar load? I have heard that Lil gun is not a powder you want to use in sub zero temperatures to, but I stay indoors when it gets down to the teens once or twice a year in my neck of the woods so that is not much of a concern for me.

[country gent]

I use Lil gun in a 22 hornet and 218 bee is all and get great results with it. But then Im used to shooting 243 for NRA High power 2000-2500 rds of barrel life LOL. My old savage 22 hornet sees maybe 100 rds a year my Martinni cadet in 218 bee about the same. Im not to worried about throat errosion in them. I use 40 grn bullets in both and they really put the hurt on wood chucks in the back yard. Im at 5-6 loadings on the 22 hornet brass now with only one faliure.

[uscra112]

Why would a powder heat up a barrel more than another if the burn rate is similar, with a similar load?

Playing around with Quickload models, it's quite apparent that Lil'Gun builds about the same pressure for a given charge as H110 or 4227, which it closely resembles on the burn charts, but it does it slightly slower, and judging by the slower decay of the pressure curve, it must keep burning a little longer, which means that some of it is still burning when the projectile and part of the charge are starting up the barrel. Hence the added heat in the barrel when firing a lot of rounds quickly.

The pressure being equal, the temperature must also be equal to the other powders, (Boyle's Law). The fact that it carries on longer might lead to greater throat erosion, but that's only theory.

I greatly prefer Lil-Gun in my Hornet and all of my 2R Lovells, (which BTW have exactly the same case capacity as the Bee). Also it makes a powerful load in the .357 Maximum with a 180 grain j-wart in my Contender. It gives me better velocity per unit pressure than any other powder I've ever used in those. But in no instance will I ever fire enough rounds through those guns to find out if there's an erosion problem. They're all single shots. Semi-autos have never appealed to my Scottish need for economy.

[xacex]

Ahh, thank you for the insight. So a flatter pressure curve will always equal a bit more heat that has to dissipate somewhere. I should have paid more attention in physics, and chemistry when Boyle's Law was mentioned, but no applications like this were discussed to catch my interest. That would explain why Lil gun also does not show pressure signs at the same pressures as H110.

[Lloyd Smale]

im not scientist so cant explain it that way. All i can say is it sure does heat up a barrel faster then about anything. If i was shooting it in a single shot or bolt gun and took my time im sure it would be ok.

[uscra112]

Ahh, thank you for the insight. So a flatter pressure curve will always equal a bit more heat that has to dissipate somewhere. I should have paid more attention in physics, and chemistry when Boyle's Law was mentioned, but no applications like this were discussed to catch my interest. That would explain why Lil gun also does not show pressure signs at the same pressures as H110.

Given equal peak pressures, the flatter curve means more BTUs that have to go somewhere, yes. And so I think I would rephrase your last sentence to say the it won't show pressure signs at the same velocity as H110. Pressure is pressure. What Lil'Gun does is to hold the pressure up for a slightly longer time, thus accelerating the projectile more for a given peak pressure. Velocity is acceleration x time. You'd have to burn a bit more H110, for a higher peak pressure, to get the same velocity, because its' pressure development decays faster, so it doesn't give the projectile as much push late in the burn period.

II have to admit that I'm inferring this from the curves I see from Quickload. There's a bunch of parameters in the "powder definition" setup panel that I don't really grasp, and I may be oversimplifying the business.

Phil

[dragon813gt]

I stopped using it all together. A mag dump in my Marlin 1894C led to a barrel that I couldn't touch. I stopped using it in a revolver for the same reason. I wasn't aware of the erosion issues until after I had my first hot barrel and looked into it. I'm not getting rid of it because you never know. But as long as I have H110 I won't be using Lil' Gun.

[BD]

My experience with Lil'Gun in the .450 Bushmaster is exactly like Lloyds in his Beowulf. 10 rounds in less than a minute, (not really all that fast), and you'd burn yourself on the barrel. I can shoot WC297 all day at the same rate and newer see those kinds of barrel temps, so I just quit buying the Lil'Gun.
BD

[uscra112]

And why on Earth does one need to fire 10 rounds of .450 in less than a minute? Got a Tyrannosaurus Rex eating from your dog's food dish?

C'mon guys, Lil'Gun wasn't intended as a pistol powder, it was to get better velocity from the small .410 bore shotgun. You make it sound like it's a defective product. . . . .

[BD]

uscra112, Occasionally I shoot guns for fun!
BD

[frnkeore]

uscra112, Occasionally I shoot guns for fun!
BD

Not sure if I'd call that fun or just plain punishment

Frank