"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[btroj]

I just finished making a batch. It does need a large saucepan, that stuff foams like nothing else when adding the soap. It does increase in temp pretty quick once that foam is gone. I got mine to 460, it got noticeably thinner so I pulled it from the heat and stirred til it gelled up. I added the beeswax, kept stirring til it got even thicker. Poured into a disposable Al pan and it is now cooling.

As a person not used to dealing with things that hot, outside of lead, I didn't find it a challenge to make at all. 20 to 30 minutes of time, doesn't stick bad either. Matter of fact, the stuff gives off more soap smell than anything.

[runfiverun]

my ivory is really pretty dry i can just use a paring knife to make powder from most of it.
so i didn't get a lot of foaming,once the heat come up though it all disappears and the mix starts to gel then go to the stringy stuff gear pictured i just stirred the stringy around and hit it with the chunks of bees wax and kept stirring.
it all went right together.
the key is to get the water out of the soap then take the heat up,time isn't a big deal.

[357maximum]

I have one day off.....my range is a mess while this white stuff melts.....and oh gee....it's raining.....saweeeeet. ....not.

I B SKREWED for awhile.....maybe it's just God's way of saying step back and chillax for a bit.


That tranny goo has some neat properties, that's for sure, but I am not going to have any more hard data for a bit, the weather and work have seen to that.


Gear... 4 of the shots out of each group are very vertically strung and each group had a ***? shot.....I KNOW the lube needs less "slip"......you can choose to say otherwise....I have never shot in Texas or Tennessee.....maybe perhaps interior ballistics work completely and utterly different down there. I would think beeswax with 145 degree melt temp combined with a substance that melts at 130 degrees would be alright without making a big lather out of the whole mess, but what do I know about shooting in Texas????????....diddly squat that's what. I obviously do not know jack shmidt about how things work in Tennessee. I do not have huge issues with modified lithi-bee and other wax/grease lubes either though.

I do have several versions of tranny goo lube ready to shoot, but they may only be useful in Michigan and just may not be "EXTREME" enough. Goo-Bee on it's own feels like bullet lube to me...as does goo/bee/micro....I will see how they work here when that 4foot of slimy drifted snow currently sliming up my range and the rain go away in a few days...I HOPE.


Hope your weather is allowing better conditions right the moment,
Mike

[geargnasher]

AND ...yep...there was more "dust" in the bore, this lube was very obviously creating a lot less friction and changing the burn efficiency of the powder, the primers say the same thing. Simple case of too much of a good thing me thinks. Nixxing some or all of the slippery should fix the issue totally. Gear came up with a good basis for a lube...it just needs some tweaking to match the way I do things for ME....someone else will disagree, and that is fine....my gun, my money, and my time.

I think you outlined the situation pretty well. See if you can fix it by manipulating only the oils and Assemblee Goo content, and if you get it back on track with your obviously borderline load, I'll duplicate the formula and try it in my stuff.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Mike,

Prob'ly the only thing Goo-Bee (w/ Microwax) will need below the 40th Parallel is Ivory. Then again, Goo-Bee with a thick mineral oil/Ivory grease may be good too. I'm interested to find out what your favorite Goo:Bee ratio turns out to bee, or not to bee...

BTW, range session in the morning with MML Purple and PB .30 cals... perhaps not extreme, but extremely fun.

MJ

[357maximum]

I think you outlined the situation pretty well. See if you can fix it by manipulating only the oils and Assemblee Goo content, and if you get it back on track with your obviously borderline load, I'll duplicate the formula and try it in my stuff.

Gear

That "obvious borderline load" shoots in several guns and not all owned by me....and that load will shoot MOA or therebouts with several other lubes, just not yours or Joes gooey soap laden lubes. Hmmmm says I.

Take a couple a guns that shoot at or about MOA and change out ONLY the lube to slimier ones and it is the load/guns fault......I do not think so Lucy...................guess someone would have to do some splainin to me on that one.

signed,
one confused sumbeach

[Marlin Junky]

That "obvious borderline load" shoots in several guns and not all owned by me....and that load will shoot MOA or therebouts with several other lubes, just not yours or Joes gooey soap laden lubes. Hmmmm says I.

Take a couple a guns that shoot at or about MOA and change out ONLY the lube to slimier ones and it is the load/guns fault......I do not think so Lucy...................guess someone would have to do some splainin to me on that one.

signed,
one confused sumbeach

The first thing I'd do is dump the castor oil (if you haven't dumped it already) and perform a re-shoot, all else equal. You haven't got around to sub'n (and actually shooting) Dr. Tranny for Mag-Tech yet, have you? I realize the weather's not so great up there.

MJ

[badgeredd]

I need to understand why your loads are "obviously borderline" Mike. If I recall correctly, you had developed higher velocity loads with the same gun and boolit combination when you were wringing out the Max. Do you have pictures of the targets you shot with the MML lube and the Goo lube?

I don't understand why you'd need to re-develope loads if you just changed lube. If I recall correctly, when one changes just one component in a load, any improvement or degrading of results pretty much point to the one component that has been changed.

[geargnasher]

Gear...plot that group out..........Can you have vertical stringing with a wobble? ... i think so

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Other than that I nod my head and say yep to most of the above. I understand your need for stabilizing ...mitagating the wax.....just I am not sure how to do it without tossing things out of line....yet.

Dropping my powder charge in THAT LOAD would really not be the right thing to do, it was showing signs of innefficiency already......the lack of friction is the cause but going down in powder is not the way to go...adding more is, but I have not the room to do that...a faster powder might fix it, but to be dead honest I am not going to rework every load for every gun I have to satisfy a lube requirement that does not exist. A soaped version of MML has been sent to a few hot places...we shall see how that goes...I had to farm that testing out via samples as I do not have the weather to do so and I am too cheap to buy a plane ticket to a range in Haites. I am going to do some hybridizing work at some point and see if Assemblee Goo + Soap+ Beeswax + Microwax may hold the answer. The batch I made with 1part A.G/ 1part MW/ 2parts BW by weight feels right, but it does not contain soap....I just had to see....could not help it....I am sure you understand.

I think that we are right on track as far as the rest of it goes, but I am going to have to go get more assemblee goo shortly. There is an answer here with the assemblee goo+soap....I can feel it....we just have to find it is all. How much soap does a lube have to have to make you happy in Texas?

Straight from the horse's mouth, as we say in Texas. Your load is showing every sign of erratic burn with only a lube change, in a gun with a 15" barrel no less. The SL-61 obviously threw it over the edge, so tell me, is that really the lube's fault or the nut behind the press handle?

Now I have something cropping up with a lot more shooting, been loading/shooting/loading/shooting all morning and afternoon with my .30-30. I've been leaving the gun on the bench in the shade at 55F with the action open between loading sequences, and it's consistently throwing the first shot low, about a group diameter's distance from the edge of the group. Not impressing me. SOOOO, all signs pointing to too much residual, I'm thinking my next batch may have some synthetic two-stroke oil subbed for the castor, and a bit less of it. Probably remove the mineral oil entirely and cut the Assemblee Goo by 20% or so.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

...I'm thinking my next batch may have some synthetic two-stroke oil subbed for the castor, and a bit less of it. Probably remove the mineral oil entirely and cut the Assemblee Goo by 20% or so.

Gear

Not all mod's in the same batch, I hope? How 'bout just cutting back on the Dr. Tranny 20% OR dumping the castor oil and re-testing under as close to the same conditions as possible?

MJ

[geargnasher]

I need to understand why your loads are "obviously borderline" Mike. If I recall correctly, you had developed higher velocity loads with the same gun and boolit combination when you were wringing out the Max. Do you have pictures of the targets you shot with the MML lube and the Goo lube?

I don't understand why you'd need to re-develope loads if you just changed lube. If I recall correctly, when one changes just one component in a load, any improvement or degrading of results pretty much point to the one component that has been changed.

You don't understand because you don't see how all of this stuff is interrelated.

Mike has explained why at least twice in the past week on this thread, although he's taking the approach of modifying the lube instead of the issue the lube turned up with his load. I think it's obvious the lube needs a tweak, too, but he's got other problems to deal with as well.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Not all mod's in the same batch, I hope? How 'bout just cutting back on the Dr. Tranny 20% OR dumping the castor oil and re-testing under as close to the same conditions as possible?

MJ

This is a case of "do as I say, not as I do". I can pretty much tell at this point what's going to do what with these types of ingredients. The Assemblee Goo percentage doesn't affect the shooting much, but affects the firmness of the lube. It is slightly softer than needed to flow in the presses at 50F, so probably needs less. The oils are concerning me with residuals at this point, time to try an oil that is more predictable in the cold. ATF might be the answer, too. Nice thing about this stuff is that the things to modify, and what to use, are a short list and pretty easy to identify, so it shouldn't take a lot of tweaking to nail it down.

Gear

[felix]

Always consider the lube changing between relays. Typically, all beeswax lubes I have made are suspect by default, and various mixes have definitely varying time limitations. I have not tested other carriers enough to determine this conclusively. The bench gun (tight neck) must be shot within 20 minutes for the same 1st shot impact location. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

...The Assemblee Goo percentage doesn't affect the shooting much, but affects the firmness of the lube. It is slightly softer than needed to flow in the presses at 50F, so probably needs less.

Gear

OK Ian, it's your time and money; however, I think you'll find that by reducing the viscosity that much, you're probably effecting shot displacement from the group center.

MJ

[badgeredd]

You don't understand because you don't see how all of this stuff is interrelated.

Mike has explained why at least twice in the past week on this thread, although he's taking the approach of modifying the lube instead of the issue the lube turned up with his load. I think it's obvious the lube needs a tweak, too, but he's got other problems to deal with as well.

Gear

I'll buy into half of that statement Ian. The lube needs tweeked.

As for understanding the inter-related componesnts, I am well aware of the relationships. Knowing the relationships is how I've managed 2700 fps loads that are accurate. Don't get overly confident in your knowledge.

[geargnasher]

Then why do you pose such silly questions as why one might need to rework a load for a drastic lube change, Edd? If you understand how this works, why don't you help instead of sit in the stands and throw rotten fruit at the players?

Gear

[357maximum]

Anybody else getting that same feeling they get when they try to discuss a subject with a liberal?


I have a problem with all my loads ...I simply do not know what the **** I am doing, so I just make **** up as I go along to cover my *** apparently. I have went above and beyond trying to help from this end..........please continue to make grease and spout big terms till you feel better.......I am giving myself a timeout.....I am tired of this thread and the way certain people berate others who are only trying to help the OP reach a goal that he has met at least twice in this thread. whatever, nevermind, doesn't matter.

[badgeredd]

Then why do you pose such silly questions as why one might need to rework a load for a drastic lube change, Edd? If you understand how this works, why don't you help instead of sit in the stands and throw rotten fruit at the players?

Gear

What I don't understand is how you jumped to the conclusion there is a problem with Mike's load. Silly question or one you just can't answer?

YES the lube is different, but a lube that destroys the previous accuracy of a load tells me the lube needs work first and foremost. Once the lube is acting in a way to show reasonable accuracy, one may then want to tweak the load to behave better with the new lube. To ignore the fact the lube is not even close to right is "silly."

No where does Mike say he needs to change his load to work with the lube, but you did in a less than respectful way.

"Straight from the horse's mouth, as we say in Texas. Your load is showing every sign of erratic burn with only a lube change, in a gun with a 15" barrel no less. The SL-61 obviously threw it over the edge, so tell me, is that really the lube's fault or the nut behind the press handle?"

"Now I have something cropping up with a lot more shooting, been loading/shooting/loading/shooting all morning and afternoon with my .30-30. I've been leaving the gun on the bench in the shade at 55F with the action open between loading sequences, and it's consistently throwing the first shot low, about a group diameter's distance from the edge of the group. Not impressing me. SOOOO, all signs pointing to too much residual, I'm thinking my next batch may have some synthetic two-stroke oil subbed for the castor, and a bit less of it. Probably remove the mineral oil entirely and cut the Assemblee Goo by 20% or so."

Obviously the same advice to change ones load does not apply to the problems you are having, Why is that? Can't get a 30-30 to shoot it well?...that is really hard to do with a good lube and load.

You needn't worry yourself about me throwing "rotten fruit" (odd way to characterize questions) because I have a good lube that works...it is called MML. Have a grand and glorious day.

[geargnasher]

Look, I'm getting cold-barrel, first shot flyers today, NOT blown groups three times the normal size and a pretty affirmative report that the powder is no longer burning efficiently after the lube change. The difference in what's happening should be clear based on the reported facts and observations. I'm experiencing a classic cold-start problem today with this lube below 60F, though usually with other lubes the flyer is high and right or left, but still more off on elevation than windage. From everything he said in his shooting report, Mike was having a powder burn issue because his load wasn't balanced to the Consistency Of Residuals Encountered in his bore using my lube, a problem his lube didn't have because it changed the bore condition enough to make the load work. He may have still had a cold-start flyer even if he fixed the load to work with the new lube, but we will never know because deductive reasoning and scientific method are not the prevailing modes of operation here.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Always consider the lube changing between relays. Typically, all beeswax lubes I have made are suspect by default, and various mixes have definitely varying time limitations. I have not tested other carriers enough to determine this conclusively. The bench gun (tight neck) must be shot within 20 minutes for the same 1st shot impact location. ... felix

It does change between relays in this instance, one of the things I'm trying to overcome by engineering a better formula. I actually shot three different boolit designs (mainly for lube groove variety) and worked the powder charge around some with each to verify I wasn't having a harmonic or burn issue, it was apparent I wasn't. The lube residuals changed after cooling a half-hour or more on a cool, windy day. I left the rifle on the bench in the Lead Sled with the action open while rotating to my reloading bench for reloads/adjustments/lunch/forum updates. Starmetal lube doesn't seem to have this problem, but aside from the cold-start dropping low, the mean accuracy is the same. Of course, we all have stacks of lube recipes that shoot great at 50-60 degrees for long strings with no flyers, but none that I know of with a formula that won't melt until well over 200F.

OK Ian, it's your time and money; however, I think you'll find that by reducing the viscosity that much, you're probably effecting shot displacement from the group center.

MJ

Maybe so, Don, but I endeavor to find out. As long as the lube does the same thing every time and doesn't lead, it doesn't matter where the viscosity ends up, the load can be adjusted once to re-align with the sweet spot and won't have to be changed again.

Gear