.45 Keith

[zipdog]

Thanks, Frank. I'm kinda new at this and didn't want to buy the wrong sizing die.

Rusty

[LAH]

zipdog the RCBS 45-255-SWC moulds we've had through our shop would not size above .452 especially when cast from straight wheelweight metal. I can't say for sure the one you get, or the ones these guys have will be the same but if you need a larger bullet you might ask before buying.

[GLL]

Here is an example of a linotype .45-255K cast at 0.456+" and sized to 0.452".

They turn out very nicely.

As Frank indicated the mould makers tend to change the size and shape of a single mould number through time. This may account for LAH's cast size differences.
I get 0.455-0.456" with WW+Sn out of this one.

Jerry

[LAH]

Beautiful bullet Jerry.

[45r]

get the 270 saa rcbs.it shoots as good or better than any boolit in that weight.it shoots ragged hole groups in my redhawk.does the same in my 454 casull but I have to trim the brass back 10 thou to get them to chamber in my model 83.

[zipdog]

Here is an example of a linotype .45-255K cast at 0.456+" and sized to 0.452".

Jerry, is that a RCBS .45-255-SWC (#82050)? Ditto on a beautiful bullet!

Rusty

[GLL]

Rusty:

The old RCBS designation .45-255-KT and the new designation .45-255-SWC are both RCBS Part #82050. The box on the older moulds said "Keith Type" and the mould was stamped with the "KT" not the "SWC".

Jerry

[Lloyd Smale]

there has actually been at least 3 different versions of that bullet over the years at least ive ran into 3 there may have been more.

[wonderwolf]

I got in on the group buy for the 244 gr Keith style 6 cav mold and hope to use that in the ruger blackhawk and my 1911 for all around use...I have not had any luck with heavier bullets in any of my revolvers for long range shooting though I admit the 310GR GC out of my .44 does thump nicely under 100 yards. 200yards+ its cross your fingers time.

I think I'll stick with the 244gr in both my 1911 and my ruger to just keep things simple (when it comes in).

Its very curious to see all the "keith" styles of bullets....Some don't even come close...though I am not sure what the exact parameters are for a keith style boolit it would be nice to have a checklist and be able to confirm that a design was in fact a keith style or just a pseudo style.

[mark348]

the one true test of a boolit that wears the keith name...... is shooting it at long range,,,,if it dosen't shoot, its not a keith,,,, elmer's earlier designs for belding&mull would not shoot at any great distance,,, he "quit" them,,,,,,for designs that would, and we should too,,,,, all this would be so much easier if mr. keith had published drawings,,,,,,sadly we are left testing many "offender" molds to find the few that actually shoot,,,,fortunately there are people who can help narrow down the process,, frank505,,, spends an untold amount of time testing in the cody wy country,, he has helped me understand more about keith designs,,,, i'd encourage anyone with keith type questions to talk with him, you'll come away with alott of useful information,

[felix]

Keep the center of gravity and center of pressure right next to each other, and a 62 meplat Keith will shoot a long ways. ... felix

[BluesBear]

Wonderwolf, Keith did have a criteria for his designs.

I can't recall all of them off the top of my head right now but what I can recall are three equal driving bands, a "square" grease groove and a 62-64% meplat.

But I'm sure there are many here who can receite them verbatim in their sleep.

[wonderwolf]

Wonderwolf, Keith did have a criteria for his designs.

I can't recall all of them off the top of my head right now but what I can recall are three equal driving bands, a "square" grease groove and a 62-64% meplat.

But I'm sure there are many here who can receite them verbatim in their sleep.

Is this why most molds are "keith type" since as per the photos above the driving bands are not equal?...I think the square driving bands hold lube better...actually I know it because there is more surface area. For some reason I thought it was a 70% meplat and 2 driving bands of equal size?

[wonderwolf]

Keep the center of gravity and center of pressure right next to each other, and a 62 meplat Keith will shoot a long ways. ... felix

What is meant by center of pressure?

[BluesBear]

A true Keith handgun bullet will have (from the base forward);
A driving band
A flat bottomed* grease groove
A driving band
A crimp groove
A driving band
The nose.

They're often called Keith type because so many have since been devised that Elmer himself didn't create. For instance he hated that Lyman changed to a round grease groove for ease of manufacture. Elmer never created one with such a groove so therefore any SWC with one cannot be a true Keith.


*We often call the square when in reality they are trapizoidal.
If they were truely square you'd never get the boolit out of the mould.

[frank505]

Some time ago, Dave Scovill did some very good articles on grease groove differences and alloy hardness. His findings in the 1980's just rediscoveed what the real shooters of the 1880's found out. "Square" grease grooves expand radially, rounded ones collapse. In both designs the bullet shortens, especially the rounded groove type. Try it yourself, but read what was discovered a hundred plus years ago by people driven for results not money.
A true Keith design bullet is more fun to shoot and learn what you and your sixgun are capable of at longer distances than most shoot. I hear the horror stories of badly designed offender bullets at least weekly. Test, test test, it is the only way you can be sure of what load you are shooting, and test at long range, that is the true test.

[GLL]

Take a look this photo of CAT's 454424 GB bullet designed by 45 2.1. It is one of the very few around that actually have three equal drive bands and a flat lube grove.

It is a VERY nice bullet that drops from the moulds with ease ! I have never tested them at long distances because I cannot even see at long distances. At 25 yards it is a beauty. I would love to hear a report from someone who does shoot them way out there!

Jerry

[crabo]

What is CAT, where do you get them, and do they come in any other calibers?

Thanks,

Crabo

[BluesBear]

crabo,

CAT = Catshooter.
He's one of our premier group buy honchos.
So far he has offered several Keith style boolit buys in several calibers.

[Lloyd Smale]

As usual i have to agree with frank. The 452424 and the 454424 have never impressed me. They have been poor fliers and have be even tough to get short range accuracy with for me. I shake my head at the many people that are supposidly knowlegable handgunners and gun writers that brag up this bullet. I think most of them never took it beyond poping cans at 25 yards.