Can Propane Be "Dirty"?

[oneokie]

Pay close attention to number 4 at this link:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/cmps...php?page=Terms

[clintsfolly]

A side note if you mark with paint " For Welding Only" on the old style tanks you can get the filled at a propane fill station!! Clint

[Mooseman]

That is True...I painted several of my tanks Red and labeled them "Welding Gas" for my soldering torch and weedburners so they can be filled. Forklift tanks are also fillable without the OPD valve.

[Bad Water Bill]

For the rest of us folks. I do not know about EVERYWHERE in the U S but here in northern Illinois there is a microscopic SPIDER that just lover to get in propane lines and spin a web so dense that it will almost stop the flow of propane. Been cleaning them out for years.

Put a light on the line and the web will look like an old time movie screen.

[bowfin]

No go away and don't bother me again unless you have something of value to add.

I will and I won't and I did.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well, not to upset anyone here and only trying to share of my experiences/thoughts/suggestions like ALL the rest of the folk, but I have run into one thing which I have not seen listed here.

After wrecking two Mr. Heaters on winter elk trips, I sent a "5 gal" tank on it's way at a tank exchange, knowing that because of the old style valve, the company would need to remove the old valve, clean & test the tank before installing the new style valve and putting it back into service.

Some place, some how, I got some type of oil in this tank. Had to come from a tank filling station at some point. And the Mr. Heater would run for awhile and then slowly die out.

I took the first one apart and found a large amount of this "oil" in the valve and burner control. Did a bunch of asking and it "might" ????? possibly of come from the "skunk" added which is the product that gives off the rotten egg smell of leaking propane or natural gas.

That was the best answer I could come up with.

No dust, but some type of oil.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[MT Gianni]

Merco-captan is the odorant added to Nat Gas & LP for odorizing. In most cases you would use less than one drop from an old eyedropper per 125 gallon tank, I vote for a contaminated tank. Pipeline oils can hang in a tank but are rare and will pass through an orifice and burn. Usually contamination in a gas comes out and burns with a colored flame on a range or other open visible burner. My concerns are that a tip cleaner may have damaged the excess flow device, causing it to flake.

[WilliamDahl]

No go away and don't bother me again unless you have something of value to add.

Q: "How do Yankees say 'hello'?"

"Up yours!"
"Oh no, up *yours*..."

Seriously though Alan, putting a pot of molten lead on the top of a 20 lb LPG tank just does not seem to be that safe. The ring on the bottom of the tank is smaller than the diameter of the tank and that just seems to be asking for trouble. Maybe you have gotten away with it for quite awhile, but it looks a bit unsafe. Do you have access to a welder and some scrap metal? If so, you might want to consider building a wide base stand for your pot so that the weight of the pot rests on the stand and not the LPG tank.

There are definitely advantages to separating the gas supply from the burner assembly though. It definitely makes it easier to change tanks and if you have natural gas supply at your home, it makes it easy to change the burner to work with either LPG or natural gas.

With regards to your possible tank contamination problem, if you removed the burner off the tank, turned the tank upside down, waited a day or so for anything that might be in there to settle, and then turned the valve on so that the liquid LPG was being forced out the outlet valve, it *might* carry any contaminate with it as long as the contaminate is heavier than LPG.

[H.Callahan]

Seriously though Alan, putting a pot of molten lead on the top of a 20 lb LPG tank just does not seem to be that safe. The ring on the bottom of the tank is smaller than the diameter of the tank and that just seems to be asking for trouble. Maybe you have gotten away with it for quite awhile, but it looks a bit unsafe. Do you have access to a welder and some scrap metal? If so, you might want to consider building a wide base stand for your pot so that the weight of the pot rests on the stand and not the LPG tank.

Not trying to stir trouble, but just as clarification, what he has is a standard, plain, vanilla plumbers furnace. These were used for decades by plumbers (until lead became a no-no) to melt lead to pour into cast iron pipe joint to pack them and (along with oakum stuffed into the joint prior to pouring the lead) to make watertight joints. My dad was a plumber, my grandfather was a plumber, most of their friends were plumbers. During the summers, I worked as a plumber's apprentice (read: did everything a plumber does, but get paid about 1/3 of a plumber's salary) during my high school and college years. I am very familiar with them and I use my dad's furnace to this day to smelt boolit metal.

There is nothing especially unsafe about them. The seal to the propane tank is very positive -- probably much better than a wear-prone rubber hose with two connectors. Can they be tipped over? Yes, but they are not easily tipable. The only instance I ever heard of one being tipped was a plumber that kicked one over because he was mad for getting fired off a job site (got a front row seat to that one!). Even then, it "just" spilled lead on the ground -- no explosions or fire. If it concerns the user, the tank can be placed in a ring, like an old tire or such or even surround the tank with concrete blocks or bricks. It is just not an issue.

All dealings with fire, high temps, explosive gases and liquid metal have risk. But I don't think these furnaces add any more danger than a turkey fryer or weed burner setup.

[Alan in Vermont]

Not trying to stir trouble, but just as clarification, what he has is a standard, plain, vanilla plumbers furnace. These were used for decades by plumbers (until lead became a no-no) to melt lead to pour into cast iron pipe joint to pack them and (along with oakum stuffed into the joint prior to pouring the lead) to make watertight joints. My dad was a plumber, my grandfather was a plumber, most of their friends were plumbers. During the summers, I worked as a plumber's apprentice (read: did everything a plumber does, but get paid about 1/3 of a plumber's salary) during my high school and college years. I am very familiar with them and I use my dad's furnace to this day to smelt boolit metal.

There is nothing especially unsafe about them. The seal to the propane tank is very positive -- probably much better than a wear-prone rubber hose with two connectors. Can they be tipped over? Yes, but they are not easily tipable. The only instance I ever heard of one being tipped was a plumber that kicked one over because he was mad for getting fired off a job site (got a front row seat to that one!). Even then, it "just" spilled lead on the ground -- no explosions or fire. If it concerns the user, the tank can be placed in a ring, like an old tire or such or even surround the tank with concrete blocks or bricks. It is just not an issue.

All dealings with fire, high temps, explosive gases and liquid metal have risk. But I don't think these furnaces add any more danger than a turkey fryer or weed burner setup.

I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate YOUR post!

Why do so many people think that virtually everything done is somehow "unsafe"? Who has appointed them as overseers of those of us who choose to make our own decisions? And why, almost universally, do they come across as if they NEED to educate us, are they so certain that they are of superior intelligence that they MUST know more than those of us who do not get all wound out about "safety"?

If someone asks for your advice re; safety, by all means give it but please, lay off these safety lectures!

[WilliamDahl]

Why do so many people think that virtually everything done is somehow "unsafe"? Who has appointed them as overseers of those of us who choose to make our own decisions? And why, almost universally, do they come across as if they NEED to educate us, are they so certain that they are of superior intelligence that they MUST know more than those of us who do not get all wound out about "safety"?

If someone asks for your advice re; safety, by all means give it but please, lay off these safety lectures!

Because there are other people who might be reading this other than yourself?

Because some of us are old enough to have survived bad mistakes and think that if you can learn from the mistakes of others, it is a GOOD thing?

Maybe with a small pot on the top of that device, it is not too unsafe, but there's going to be some newbie that is going to see that and think that they can put a cast iron dutch oven on there and smelt down a 5g bucket of wheel weights.

It's a lot cheaper to learn from the mistakes of others than to make them yourself. And a lot less painful...

Buy, hey, if you don't want to learn from others, feel free to get a large aluminum turkey fryer pot and smelt lead in it from wet wheel weights without any protective gear.

Alan, from what I've read of your posts in this thread, you come across either as very young and thinking that you know everything (basically like any teenager) or maybe you're just the stereotypical rude NYer (who now lives in Vermont). Whichever the case may be, good luck in your casting endeavors and try to be safe.

[Trey45]

Alan, these "lectures" are people with a genuine concern for your well being, for reasons I have yet to fathom, given the way you talk down to people I could not care less if you blew yourself to kingdom come as long as you didn't take any bystanders with you. If you cannot control how you address people on this forum, I will control it for you. Clear?

You were warned once by another moderator in this thread. The warnings are done.

[EDG]

Is it possible to remove the valve fitting from the tank when it is empty?
If you can remove it take it into a dark area and look down into the tank with a flash light to see if it is corroded and dusty or flaky. if it is bad just toss the tank and install your old fitting on a new tank.
If that is not appealing turn the old tank up side down and shake out any crud. If you can rig up a long tubing wan on a compressed air line use that to blow out the tank while holding it up side down. If only a little stuff come out you may be able to use the tank a while longer. If a lot comes out you may have a lot of corrosion or flaking going on. To knock the rest of the flakes loose you might drop some BBs or lead shot into the tank and shake it around , the blow it out again. At some point in time you will say it is clean enough or you will decide it is too cruddy and replace it. No matter what keep the top fitting to install on a new tank.
If you open your tank to clean it. Be sure to tell the filler to purge the air out of it before refilling.

PS when you re-install the the tank fitting use the proper pipe dope and check it for leaks.

[mac60]

I work at a compressed gas plant. We fill hundreds of propane cylinders every day. A good friend I work with who's job includes filling propane cylinders got a kick out of this. He assured me he would not fill that cylinder (it's scrap). He also told me that any reputable company wouldn't fill it either and in fact anyone that did fill it would be breaking the law and opening themselves to a tremendous amount of liability. Alan, buddy they're not that expensive and it's not worth the risk. Scrap it and move on.

[Alan in Vermont]

I work at a compressed gas plant. We fill hundreds of propane cylinders every day. A good friend I work with who's job includes filling propane cylinders got a kick out of this. He assured me he would not fill that cylinder (it's scrap). He also told me that any reputable company wouldn't fill it either and in fact anyone that did fill it would be breaking the law and opening themselves to a tremendous amount of liability. Alan, buddy they're not that expensive and it's not worth the risk. Scrap it and move on.

(A) Why is that cylinder scrap?

(B) What law would be broken in the filling of that cylinder?

I'm not debating that maybe it is junk but I don't understand how all that is visible in a picture.

Earlier someone commented something to the effect that "that doesn't look very safe", again, that's not a particularly viable appraisal based on a picture.

How do they test propane tanks, hydro test as done with welding gas cylinders? I've got nothing against having this one tested, would prefer to do that before I replaced it with a tank of current manufacture. Empty this one weighs about twice as much as a new one, I kinda like having the extra weight down low.

Of course, none of this is germaine to the issue with the orifice getting plugged unless there is something coming from inside this tank. Unfortunately there is no good way to determine that without a thorough inspection of the interior.

[mac60]

Alan, I'll try to answer your questions.

(A) The cylinder would be scrap just based on the general appearance of the cylinder.

(B) DOT regulations regarding the filling of propane cylinders forbids filling a cylinder of that type that doesn't have an "OPD" (overfill prevention device) valve. Also, if you'll look on the cylinder there will be a date (probably on the hand rail). If that date is prior to 2007 the cylinder is out of test.

A picture says a thousand words Alan, if something looks unsafe, there is a strong possibility that it is unsafe.

Propane tanks are not hydro tested (we do have a hydrotest facility at the plant). Propane cylinders are a "low pressure" cylinder and are not hydrotested or ultrasonic tested. They are given a visual inspection. If the cylinder is out of test the filler must determine if it is in a safe condition to refill. The filler would look at the overall condition of the cylinder, paying close attention to the bottom of the cylinder. Rust on the bottom is a sure sign of a problem. At the very least the valve would have to be changed. If the filler determined (by a visual inspection of the inside of cylinder) that it was in a safe condition to be refilled, he would replace the valve and stamp it with the appropriate test date. Just by looking at the cylinder it appears to be a very old style of cylinder and I would be very confident in saying it is probably out of test. The cylinder is probably absolutely full of rust (that's what is clogging the "orifice" as you said) this rust alone makes the cylinder weak by eating away at the walls of the cylinder and making them thinner and is reason to reject the cylinder. I think the thing that is making so many people uncomfortable with your setup there is the fact that putting 30 lbs. of molten lead on top of that cylinder which looks old and rusted out (hence in a weakened state) - and the thought of the cylinder failing with 30 lbs of molten lead on top of it, combined with the flame and a bunch of propane. Brother if that cylinder failed while you had all that lead on top of it and it exploded you wouldn't have to worry about it 'cuz you'd be dead. We get safety pounded into our heads non-stop on a daily basis and I've seen safety videos that showed the results of even a small cylinder of propane exploding and it's no joke. Seriously brother, if I were you I'd just save up my pennies and get me a turkey fryer and a new 20 lb. propane tank and throw that rig in the dumpster.

[Bad Water Bill]

I do not know if different states have different rules but here in Illinois I have been told the NEW bottle is good for 15 years. The bottle must then be RE INSPECTED and if still good it will be restamped for 10 more years. After that it is off to the ????yard. If at any time there is a significant amount of rust present the bottle is to be junked regardless of the date on the tank. Propane is to dangerous to take ANY chances with it.

I have had many bottles refilled over the last 40+ years and never seen one that rusty ANYWHERE.

Many refill stations are capable of removing your valve and if it is an approved type re installing it on a safe tank.

That bottle has the explosive power to LEVEL 3-5 homes in your area and send you a couple of blocks away in a heartbeat.

[lwknight]

That bottle has the explosive power to LEVEL 3-5 homes in your area and send you a couple of blocks away in a heartbeat.

OK now that is an exaggeration.
I get the point but for credibility lets keep it real.

20 pounds of propane will have 400,000 btu of heat energy.
Propane has a narrow window of flammability where too little oxygen or too little propane simply will not burn. High concentrations will be oxygen deficient and can do nothing.

I suppose that you could put the tank in a large fire to B.L.E.V.Y. it but I still doubt that it would break windows at over 100' away because it would vent off most of its content before bursting.

In a controlled environment where the right concentration of gas and oxygen were present and the whole tank were releases and confined in a garage or the likes , you probably could blow half the house away.

Now if you really want to make a blast, open the tank in a confined space and open 4 X 500 cubic ft oxygen tanks till all tanks are exhausted then ignite the gasses to level a 200' radius of neighborhood.
We are not talking about ether or acetylene which can burn at anywhere between 3% to 97% concentration.

Maybe I shoul;d edit my signature to " Blowing up stuff is fun " Buhahahaha!!

[Alan in Vermont]

OK, everybody can tell from the pic that that cylinder is covered with rust. I have it here to look at, right up close and personal and there is no rust visible anywhere on the cylinder. There is some light rust coming through the paint on the guard/handles around the valve. That part is not galvanized and appears to have been welded to the cylinder post-galvanizing. It is not peeling paint because it is rusty, the paint is peeling off the gavanized coating on the cylinder. Same thing as painting over galvanized roofing, it can be done successfully IF you have the right process to properly condition the zinc prior to painting.

As for the OPD issue, as it has already been noted here, commercial/industrial cylinders are NOT required to have the OPD stuff installed. This melting unit has been circulating around our circle of casters for 30 yrs or more, been filled at both the local fill stations as well as at the commercial propane dealers and never once has anyone questioned it. Everybody here can't be completely ignorant/incompetent and they are seeing it in person, not via pictures only.

[mac60]

You're having fun aren't you Alan?