45-70 Leading

[btroj]

Use a good lube and seasoning isn't required.
I also really get to "squeaky clean". Ran one wet, two dry thru my Marlin 357 today. Looked down the bore, looked good so that was all it got.

[Red Sky]

Thanks everyone. I just got home to clean the rifle from shooting today, but the jacketed rounds fortunately did the trick and cut through the rest of the lead that my elbow grease didn't. I grabbed some fishing sinkers to slug the bore with once I get it clean, and hopefully can then decide whether I need to start sizing or open up the mold a bit. I'm also going to pick up some pure lead asap and cast 50/50 to bring the hardness down a bit, per suggestions.

Would toilet paper work as filler? I've heard of people using this and have no dacron at the moment. I'll also try the 28gr load (thanks Larry) without filler to see how it goes.

As far as proper bullet seating depth goes, what should I be looking for exactly? This should be the easiest thing for me to adjust, so I'd hate to lose the benefit of correctly performing this step.

It may have been a big part of the problem, as Freightman mentioned, that my barrel was not clean enough from prior jacketed rounds. Hopefully I can get efficient at the proper level of cleaning as I intend to get the most versatility out of this rifle possible and will be shooting some of both (though not in the same range session). Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate the data and advice. I'm going to get this rifle clean and slug the bore. I'll post what I find.

[Rico1950]

"Would toilet paper work as filler? I've heard of people using this and have no dacron at the moment"

Instead of the TP, find an old cushion, stuffed animal toy or pillow. Most likely filled with Dacron polyester.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

There are a number of powders that work well in 45/70. I found that 3031 works for me and I've stuck with it. I started with around 1200-1300 fps for the Lyman 405 grain bullet. You can of course go higher depending on your needs and accuracy, but the recoil level also goes up with increased MV. 1500FPS and higher will work you over and tire you out. Also try switching to another lube or two as that may make a difference. A change in sizing diameter sometimes helps as well. It may take some tinkering with these variables to get things right so be patient and keep working at it. If you use Jacketed bullets be sure and scrub-a- dub to clean the bore really well before shooting cast and visa-versa. LLs

[mehavey]

Would toilet paper work as filler? [ or dacron?]

I recommend no "filler" at all -- other than a complete fill with cream of wheat (no airspace at all) -OR- the barest/smallest itsy-bitsy-est lightest tuft of natural kapok that will simply hold the powder generally toward the back of the case. You want nothing that won't be consumed (not melted into a glob like dacron) in an instant.

For what it's worth, I recommend SR4759 or AA5744 for what the OP wants. Both reasonably fill the case by design; neither are position dependent for ignition; both give the optimal velocity range for the 45-70 shooting lead in the Marlin.

[Red Sky]

I love the economy and general power level I can get with AA5744 so far, but may try some others as well. I'm not worried about recoil - the jacketed rounds I've shot have mostly been Speer 400g @ 1750-1800fps using Varget, and the recoil is just part of the fun at the range for me. I intend to hunt with this rifle in the future as my first hunting rifle (chosen because I love the versatility and power of the 45-70 and wanted an "only rifle" for the time being), and hope to tailor my loads for the game in question.

Found some residual leading that the jacketed rounds didn't get out so I'm working on that right now. Apparently I need better cleaners as well. Any recommendations to replace my Breakfree, particularly for copper and/or lead removal? Gun lube suggestions more than welcome as well, though I'm happy using Rem Oil if I don't use the CLP unless something is particularly better.

Since I have no pure lead on hand at the moment I am going to start troubleshooting with the issues other than alloy hardness, and work my way to that as I eliminate other factors.

[Jim]

I recommend no "filler" at all -- other than a complete fill with cream of wheat (no airspace at all) -OR- the barest/smallest itsy-bitsy-est lightest tuft of natural kapok that will simply hold the powder generally toward the back of the case. You want nothing that won't be consumed (not melted into a glob like dacron) in an instant.

For what it's worth, I recommend SR4759 or AA5744 for what the OP wants. Both reasonably fill the case by design; neither are position dependent for ignition; both give the optimal velocity range for the 45-70 shooting lead in the Marlin.

With all due respect, kapok does not work as a locator. It has no memory and therefore has no 'spring'. Kapok's best application is in 'topping off' a less than normal load in a cartridge, but it requires that the space be filled with it.

Dacron, on the other hand, does have memory and will 'spring' back to original size when stuffed in a case as a locator.

There's a big difference between a powder locator and a case filler. If you're interested, HERE is a link to an article in CastPics on using Kapok.

[btroj]

Dacron is not melted into a glob. I can tell you that for certain. I have used a bit much in my 45-70 at times and I can pick up tufts of it off the ground. Other than being slightly discolored it is the same as when I went into the case.

Why can't this myth just go away?

[WHITETAIL]

Red Sky Welcome to the forum!

[mehavey]

With all due respect, kapok does not work as a locator.

If it doesn't, I must have been in error for 40 years.
And I only use it at that "locating role" -- not as a filler.
All I care about is uniform ignition/position, not fill.

For those so interested:
http://www.whitelotus.net/organic-case-kapok-pillows/
(one of which is in front of me now on the dining room table w/a few threads picked apart at a corner so to get "a little springy tuft at a time.")

[WHITETAIL]

After you clean the lead out of your gun.
Try one patch of JPW down the bore.
As far as a load for your 45-70.
Try 37gr. of IMR 4198
Lyman Gould 330gr. HP
At a OAL 2.540

[Jailer]

Red Sky skip the fillers and start with a reduced load until you get your leading issue figured out. You need fewer variables while working this out not more.

My Marlington 1895SBL works great with my Accurate 405gr PB sized to .460 and 30gr of IMR4198. Alloy is 50/50 WW and pure and accuracy is fantastic with this load.

[Jim]

After you clean the lead out of your gun.
Try one patch of JPW down the bore.
As far as a load for your 45-70.
Try 37gr. of IMR 4198
Lyman Gould 330gr. HP
At a OAL 2.540

When I'm done shooting a cast boolit rifle, it gets cleaned. After cleaning, I patch the bore to insure it's dry. I then apply a coat of a 50/50 mix of mineral spirits and White Label Xlox with a patch. The rifle is left in a barrel down position with the bolt open so the coating will dry.

I believe this acts as a protective coating and I also think it kinda' preps the barrel for the next shoot.

[725]

Wow! Tons of good info. I'll be brief:
Clean bore - I use janitorial strength (10%) ammonia available from True Value Hardware to attack copper. Repeated cleanings.

"Lead Away" cloth. Works wonders and is truely fast. Cut patches.

.................and what everybody else said.

Good luck. Don't get frustrated. You're close.

[1Shirt]

TP works, but there is a possibility of range fires, and for us in the drought area this is a real and present possibility. Have used dac fill for a number of years in a number of ctgs, and as BTroj says, no melting. Use just enough however to just loosely fill the space between the powder and the base of the boolit. Not a recommendation on my part due to the controversy regarding fill, just what I do.
1Shirt!

[Larry Gibson]

I've used TP in the past and ruined a nice pair of sneakers stomping out a couple fires one day...........

I've also used kapok and had no problems with it. I switched to dacron in the late 60's though and haven't used anything else except for testing different fillers. It is easy to work with, especially if you get it as "batting" and cut it into strips/chuncks of the appropriate size. I've shot untold thousands of rifle loads with a dacron filler including many 45-70s (I have 4 of them currently) and havenever had a melted glob.

I ran a test a year or two back for the SS forum using different fillers including COW. COW raises pressures far more than dacron.

I suggest a reading of the sticky "filler" for some very good information. The load posted above with the 27 gr 4759 is one that doesn't need the filler as most often 28 gr 5744 doesn't either. The psi's of both are high enough that they burn efficiently. This is especially the case in the 45-70 with 400+ gr bullets intended for the leverguns. The nose is short and the bearing surface long. This means that more of the bullet is inside the case and case capacity is also reduced giving more efficient burning to smaller charges of 4759 and 5744.

With those bullets seated out for use in SSs the case capacity is increased and burning efficiency decreases. then you then get into the area where the filler is benificial. Thus we see that many times what works for one situation may very well not work for another.

Larry Gibson

[Red Sky]

Thanks again everyone! I'm still struggling with getting the rest of this lead out to get an accurate measurement from slugging the barrel, so will probably make another quick trip to the store to see what's available for lead cleaning. Those cloths look promising, but when I read about them it seems they destroy bluing, so I will probably need to find something else. I know for a fact, however, that they have Shooter's Choice copper and lead removers as well as the cloths. Does anyone have any experience with those?

My current plan at this point is to thoroughly clean the bore, adjust my seating depth (found a guide here in a sticky that is wonderful!) and reduce the charge. I ordered some White Label lube (2500) which I will try as soon as it arrives. Until then, I am stuck with LLA. Is there anything else I should try on this second attempt, or should I leave it at that and test before moving on?

[Northerner]

I shoot a 500 grain GC bullet with a wax lube (SPG/Orange Magic/whatever is in my sizer) over in front of 32 grains IMR 4198. Sized to .459. I have to use Starline brass to get it to chamber. Remmington and Winchester are too thick for mine. I've never had an issue with leading using this load from the Lyman 49th Handbook.

It averages 1400 fps.

The bullet alloy is ww with enough tin for a good fill out.

I agree with Curator about keeping it slow. My first attempts with lighter bullets at higher speeds were disasters for accuracy and leading.

[Red Sky]

Well, after more thorough cleaning and examination, this project may be on hold for some time. It seems the rifling shallows out near the muzzle to near non-existence on one side of the bore. Odd because it was completely unnoticeable on my inspection in the store and subsequent use and cleaning, and the rifle has been quite accurate (~2 MOA). However, I'm fairly certain that it cannot possibly be as accurate as it should be while the rifling at the muzzle is messed up to that level, so it will be going back to the shop for warranty repair.

Hopefully it comes back in less than months and actually rectified on the first try, unlike some other experiences I've read about. I'm going to give them a chance as the rifle has functioned so well and obviously had at least some care exercised in its stock fit and finish. If they can't get it right, I'll be going for a refund and probably looking towards a BLR if I can't find a pre-Remington era 1895. Thanks for the help everyone, I'll continue working on this as soon as I get the rifle back and will be sure to post an update when I do.

[462]

Might it be that the lack of rifling, that you didn't notice prior to shooting cast boolits, is leading that was ironed into the rifling by shooting those jacketed bullets, instead of completely removing all of the leading by hand cleaning?