"Extreme" boolit lube, The Quest...

[felix]

Carbon and burnt deposits left behind that 'purge' more difficult (probably) than clean lube. Then bore condition? How do we keep it uniform? I believe like Gear said that most lube is applied to the bore by some "greasing the skids" process, good or bad. I believe "wetting" agents help in the overall process but cause their own set of fouling to contend with. ...Eutectic

Right on! That's the name of the game: keeping the barrel uniform is the lube function, no matter the composition of the projectile. The lube can be of any style, be it taken in the form of a jacket, check, or grease, etc. Anything short of the use of a ramrod. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

I think you're right on about Speed Green and Lithi-Bee. But if Speed Green could take the kind of heat I need it to (handling, not shooting) and not evaporate from the bore in a few days our search would have ended long ago. The more we talk about all this the more the right sort of Lithi-Bee seems to be the answer to all our needs. I gotta do more work with the PAG grease, and get me some of that POE 2-stroke oil and make some grease out of it and do some more Zombie lube experiments. Right after I shoot some more groups with the rifle I still have pre-fouled with Wax Free lube.

Gear

Gear,

I've got three quick questions then I need to split:

1) What is the consistency of your wax free lubes?

2) When you say, you're going to make some grease from POE 2-stroke oil, I assume you're altering the volatility of the oil; and, I also assume the volatile nature of the oil mixed with beeswax is the reason the lube dries out, right?

3) What is the difference between the white colored Lithium Grease and the Red colored Lithium Grease?

Thank you!

MJ

[geargnasher]

Gear,

I've got three quick questions then I need to split:

1) What is the consistency of your wax free lubes?
It can be made any consistency. I posted a picture of the black wax-free lube in post #701, showing as best a picture can what can be done with it.
2) When you say, you're going to make some grease from POE 2-stroke oil, I assume you're altering the volatility of the oil; and, I also assume the volatile nature of the oil mixed with beeswax is the reason the lube dries out, right? What I meant, literally, was make grease with it. I had lithium 12-stearate in mind for that and then I was thinking about mixing it about 30% with beeswax. The intent was mainly to alter the melt point of the lube so it would hold up to hot-weather handling. Guns using Speed Green and others can effectively be "pre conditioned" before shooting witha patch and jag if the lube "season" has evaporated, so it wasn't my intent to change the volatility of the oils by adding metal soap.

3) What is the difference between the white colored Lithium Grease and the Red colored Lithium Grease? I figure if the additives used in the grease make it opaque, they leave out the dye, otherwise it would look like pepto-bismol. Lithium stearate makes a translucent, white grease with clear oil, and a light-yellow grease with the amber oils.

Thank you!

MJ

Bruce would know more about the grease color question.

Gear

[bruce381]

""Bruce would know more about the grease color question.""

Most oils are clear light brown and additves vary from white to black. Greases vary in color but amber or brown is natural most any other color is a dye common are red, blue and white (from zinc oxide)

[Eutectic]

"EsterBee350".... Observations

I think the recommendations for testing a lube are pretty good at least for a starting point. One needs to see promise to continue.... I think the 'continue' should then match the personal goals wanted by the person testing.

For me, the 'cold' start is most important and also the biggest challenge it seems. Then cold weather... I want an "Extreme" for sure with a hundred degree working range if we can get it. I would probably settle for two viscosities of the same lube if I had to. My shooting will be hunting almost exclusively and MY lube must function with my very soft alloy for mushrooming bullets... So my criteria is probably worse than the average duck!

I shot only the scoped test guns this morning. I went to the eye doctor yesterday and the dilation leaves my eyes substandard the next day and the peep sights on the other two 'testers' need my old 'peepers' at their very best.

My testing at the moment is three shots per gun. This is to get a good number of cold starts. I continue usually every morning (my range is on my property) using the same target to make a cumulative group.

Today the Hornet fired rounds 24, 25, 26, and 27. If something shows up I may shoot four as in this case. The first start (cold start) was slightly out of the group about 5/8" on my 85 yard target. The next two almost touched... I had to shoot one more. It stayed with the other two making a three shot group of 7/16". The four shots were in 7/8". Yesterday I figured the lube was failing in the Hornet as my second shot was 1 1/2" low! Again I shot four and the last two were back in the group. I might add when you are shooting 8.5bhn at 2600fps in a 12" twist the bullet better be perfect! I even lathe drill the hollow points to assure concentricity and balance.

The Marlin .25-20 is a primadona. It does like Lyman 257420 (73.5gr gascheck out of my soft 8.5bhn alloy). It chronographs right at 2000fps. I shoot it at my 70 yard target. It usually puts a cold start about one inch high (every lube I've tried) and then groups at 70yds 3/4" or less with the EsterBee350.

Yesterday's tests showed the rifling machine marks (why the Marlin is in the test) slightly less visable after 23 rounds. This morning I looked with very high magnification and indeed something was there. I took a Q-Tip and wiped the muzzle about 1" in as well as the lube star..... It was dust! Better put it appeared to be fine light ash about a smokeless powder gray in color. It was not wax attached at all and wiped right away. I think this could be a good sign.

I took a little blob of Alox 350 about marble size. It is honey gold in color (no burnt grease here like Alox 606) and like a #4 or #5 grease. I dribbled a few drops of ester 2 stroke oil on it for a rough 50-50 and mixed it cold! I have yet to find what this ester oil won't mix with! I ended up with a apricot colored mayonaise like goo. This morning it was still happily mixed. I doctored a loaded .25-20 round with a little smear on the bore ride area. It shot 7/8" high... The next three went into 1/2" and the main group.

EsterBee350 continues to please me. Cold starts and final acceptance won't come before winter for me. I have another interesting test going on with it and plan to start another high speed, higher pressure, 8.5bhn test in an old Remington Model 600 .35 Remington which is accurate beyond its means with "J" word stuff.

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

Ester oils will mix with just about anything, and help other things mix that normally wouldn't. I think you're on to something.

Gear

[btroj]

For this of us who aren't "oil savvy" how can we tell if a 2 cycle oil is an "ester oil" or not?

As you can tell my general knowledge on oils and lubricants is pretty minimal. I am trying to learn.

had to ask and couldn't think of a better place for post 4000

[bruce381]

For this of us who aren't "oil savvy" how can we tell if a 2 cycle oil is an "ester oil" or not?

As you can tell my general knowledge on oils and lubricants is pretty minimal. I am trying to learn.

had to ask and couldn't think of a better place for post 4000

you have to depend on the mfg info on the bottle. I think redline makes an ester 2 stroke BUT they are not pure ester they will have a detergent additve and a diluant solvent too.

[geargnasher]

Some automotive air conditioner lubricants are "ester oils", the type was used between the mineral oils of R-12 (pre-1994) and R-134a (after 1994). I believe for a short time some ester oils or blends were used as a factory fill, and were definitely used in conversions to help mineral oil blend with the newer refrigerant, which it would not on its own. There are a bunch of different kinds of ester oils, depending on what's used to make them, but I would think a two-cycle engine oil would be more stable than an AC refrigerant oil since the refrigerant oils perform in an oxygen-free and moisture-free enviroment.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i recall ester of wood rosin being used in some soft drinks back in the day as a "binder"
type thing.
i wonder if that's even still available.

[felix]

Just make sure that none of the lube components contain fluorine of any flavor. This is because the "polymer" can become too unpredictable when fired upon, including making a new compound that CANNOT be taken out of the barrel using the usual cleaners, including scrapers of any sort no matter how "sharp". In other words, any buildup that might result will make the barrel worthless. Not worth a chance. ... felix

[utk]

An interesting article:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/esters...ic-lubricants/

(By the way; the whole site is an interesting one, with a large forum:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/)

[geargnasher]

I go there a lot, thanks for the link. If this forum were about lubes instead of boolits it would be just like that one, bunch of great folks over there and a wealth of knowlege. One day I might join up.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

Carnauba consists mostly of aliphatic esters (40 wt%), diesters of 4-hydroxycinnamic acid (21.0 wt%), ω-hydroxycarboxylic acids (13.0 wt%), and fatty acid alcohols (12 wt%). The compounds are predominantly derived from acids and alcohols in the C26-C30 range.

With this in mind, shouldn't Carnauba be a more suitable carrier for the appropriate synthetic oils than beeswax?

MJ

[btroj]

Carnuba is just too hard at reasonable temps is my guess. Even a few percent of carnuba makes a lube pretty lousy at lower temps.
I wonder if this is because the carnuba leaves a "film" of itself on the bore that is thick enough st cold temps that it is hard for a bullet to "slide" over until it gets warm. Tis could be the cause of the cold barrel flyers.
Other than giving a shiny bore to look at what does carnuba bring to the party? That and making a lube stiffer which can be done with many other things.

[Marlin Junky]

Carnuba is just too hard at reasonable temps is my guess. Even a few percent* of carnuba makes a lube pretty lousy at lower temps.
I wonder if this is because the carnuba leaves a "film" of itself on the bore that is thick enough st cold temps that it is hard for a bullet to "slide" over until it gets warm. Tis could be the cause of the cold barrel flyers.

The same can be said of beeswax... perhaps we've just been using Carnauba inappropriately. Its melt range is a few degrees wider than beeswax, its melt point is quite a bit higher and it has a chemical composition closer to esters and PAO's. It also doesn't burn as easily as beeswax (flash point of 572F vs. 400F for beeswax).

MJ

* I think you should quantify that... a few percent too much beeswax screws things up as well. Perhaps the old cliche, a little goes a long way, applies here.

[geargnasher]

One of the reasons I went back to beeswax as a carrier or support carrier is because of its composition, it's a totally different wax than petroleum waxes, and I believe being primarily alcohol esters makes it work better with certain synthetic oils.

MJ, you bring up a good point with the carnauba. Without getting too deep into the composition of Bullplate, I can tell you that when you make Speed Green with beeswax and Carnauba, something occurs between the waxes and oils that is akin to a polymerization reaction in petroleum oils. Take any other oil, like ATF, and mix it 3:1 with beeswax and the same carnauba proportion as Speed Green and you have a slimy goo. But use Bullplate and it's still a useable consistency, even though the viscocity of the Bullplate is much less.

Lamar and I discussed a similar concept briefly on the "something that may help" thread when discussing glycols.

Gear

[btroj]

I can see where carnuba may be useful with some oils to get them to mix with beeswax or other carriers when they might not want to.
Maybe the key is adding the carnuba to the oil before mixing in the carrier rather than adding the carnuba last?

[geargnasher]

I'm thinking along the lines of Eutectic's ester-based oil mixed with beeswax and carnauba. The ester oil might sort of break down the bonds in the carnaba and beeswax and make a totally new substance out of the three parts which might have some desirable qualities of firmness and lack of tack without the "complete" carnauba element leaving behind a coating. The solvent effect of ester or PAG itself might mitigate the carnauba later that seems to accumulate in rifle barrels and contribute to the cold-barrel flyers.

An organic chemist would know.

Gear

[btroj]

I do think it is that carnuba leaving a layer in the barrel that causes the cold barrel issues.

An oil with better solvent properties may mitigate that effect.

It sure looks to me that the specific oil used in a lube can make a huge difference. Not just any oil is going to work. It needs to mix with the carrier used and have certain properties such as ability to lay down a thin film and the ability to help "dissolve" lube left from a previous shot.