12ga pistol loads

[Jamesconn]

I am thinkin about getting a short barreled shotgun for the car and I'm going to get the pistol gripped one so the tax is $5 not $200 and I want to be able to shoot it one handed I need some super reduced recoil loads for 00 buck 000 buck and the lee slugs 1oz and 7/8oz

Or should I get it in 20ga

[stubshaft]

I presume you are talking about a pistol gripped shotgun with a barrel over 18" long and an overall length of 27"?

For close encounters I would use just #6 birdshot or one of the wally world dove/quail loads. Most full power slug and buck loads are overrated and can barely penetrate a car door. The exception being sabots.

[para-frame]

He specifically mentions buying a NFA AOW (the whole "200 dollar tax, 5 dollar tax" thing) bird shot is for birds, unless he is planing for a Hitchcock-esque "the birds" type attack, bird shot is useless for SD. No offense Stubshaft but what kind of car doors have you been shooting that are only "barely penetrate(ed)" with full power loads? Even the cheap, low recoil fiocchi OO buck I use has no problem blowing through both doors of a thick 70's era American truck.

Sorry Jamesconn, can't help you with load recommendations but I would suggest you try out some commercially available low recoil buck and slugs and see how bad they are out of the gun before diving too deep in to ultra light loads.

[Agent1187]

Not necessarily load related, but Aguila makes some mini-slug ammunition. They are less than 2" long (which causes cycling issues in some shotguns) but are quite pleasant to shoot!

[southpaw]

For the buck shot loads you can use bird shot data. Just make sure that you keep the weight the same ( 1oz shot, 1oz buck). For my clay target loads I use Hodgdon clays. You could also use imr 700x, unique, reddot and many others. The key here is going to be keeping your muzzle velocity down in order to keep the recoil down.

I wouldn't go with the 20ga. You can always make the 12ga shoot like a 20, but not the other way around. As you get older and shoot more you may be able to take more recoil.

Jerry Jr.

[stubshaft]

He specifically mentions buying a NFA AOW (the whole "200 dollar tax, 5 dollar tax" thing) bird shot is for birds, unless he is planing for a Hitchcock-esque "the birds" type attack, bird shot is useless for SD. No offense Stubshaft but what kind of car doors have you been shooting that are only "barely penetrate(ed)" with full power loads? Even the cheap, low recoil fiocchi OO buck I use has no problem blowing through both doors of a thick 70's era American truck.

Sorry Jamesconn, can't help you with load recommendations but I would suggest you try out some commercially available low recoil buck and slugs and see how bad they are out of the gun before diving too deep in to ultra light loads.

You have obviously never seen a soft target hit with smaller shot at close range.

Here is an excerpt from Massad Ayoob:

Two things to keep in mind about birdshot. The first is that birdshot is as lethal as buckshot at very close range. Don't believe for a second that you can just wound someone with birdshot and he'll go on to live another day. If you aren't justified in killing a man, you aren't justified in wounding him, either. Never "shoot to wound." I once again direct you to read Ayoob's 'In the Gravest Extreme' and learn the truth.

The second thing is that birdshot can make a lot of sense for home defense. I keep my home-defense 12 gauge loaded with #4 birdshot rounds. Birdshot is less likely to penetrate multiple interior walls and kill innocent people on the other side and has lower recoil than buckshot for faster follow-up shots (I live in a thin-walled apartment house; however, if I lived in a solid house with a lot of land around, I would definitely choose buckshot instead). The stopping power of birdshot should not be under-estimated: at ranges out to thirty feet or so, birdshot is virtually a solid column of lead. Choose any #4 or BB high brass lead hunting load. I like the Federal "Classic Lead Hi-Brass" #4 birdshot (HI26-4) and Winchester "Super-X" #4 high brass birdshot (X12-4), but there is little difference between the various choices. Buy whichever you please. If you're a bird hunter, use your favorite hunting shells as long as they are #6 or larger.


As far as the penetration issue I stand corrected, and will concede that 00 will penetrate the doors of the tin cans they make nowadays. But it will not penetrate the door of a 1972 Lincoln Continental at 20 yds.

[DLCTEX]

The OP specifically said for use in the car, not house or apt. Buckshot is a better choice as such use calls for longer distances. 9 size .311 pellets in a 1 1/8 oz. wad over a "field load " of powder will be all you will want in that gun. You may want to go with a lighter load. Try it and see.

[para-frame]

I don't want to ruffle any feathers here as I am new but...

You have obviously never seen a soft target hit with smaller shot at close range.

Let me introduce my self, I am a former EMT, now working as a ER nurse (though the hospital I work ats ER is more of an urgent care in capacity) I have seen my fair share of BS wounds, I have seen very few buckshot wounds though, what to know why? Two reasons, more people get shot with bird shot and there is no need to call EMS or take an obviously dead body to the hospital. What am I getting at? Bird shot doesn't work very well, buck shot does.

If you are going to quote Ayoob maybe you should have chosen an article he wrote when ballistics wasn't in its infancy, before the Miami shootout and the FBIs new standards for defensive ammo, like this segment,

Moving up from birdshot, the next progressive step on the shotgun ammo ladder is buckshot. The implication of its name to the contrary, this is not the best ammunition to use for deer unless local law in densely populated areas demands it. The most popular load, 00 buckshot (“double-ought”) comprises nine .33 caliber plain lead or copper jacketed pellets when loaded in a 12 gauge shell...Buckshot is a very close range proposition. It is actually at its best as an antipersonnel load, favored by the military for jungle warfare and embassy guard duties (it proved horrendously effective in the trenches during WWI), and by police. This writer uses buckshot as a home defense shotgun load, with #1 Express (full power) buckshot in the semiautomatic 12 guage. This delivers 16 .30 caliber pellets that strike with optimum penetration for erect bipeds, and with optimum pattern saturation at distances from close range to 15 yards. These pellets will normally stay inside the assailant’s body with a front to back shot, reducing danger to innocent bystanders who might be located unseen behind a violent criminal...a lighter “Tactical” load with less recoil makes sense for that type of home defense 12 gauge. #1 buckshot is not currently available in a Tactical loading, making 00 12 gauge Tactical buckshot the optimum fallback choice. In a 20 gauge shotgun, the best home defense load is #3 buckshot, which throws a charge of 20 pellets, each about a quarter inch in diameter.

And this,

There are other ways to get hurt using the wrong ammunition. I studied a shootout in Illinois some years ago in which a madman with a shotgun took on the police. A lawman shot him with a police shotgun, but the weapon had been loaded with #6 birdshot instead of buckshot. The tiny pellets hit the criminal, but not hard enough to cause any visible reaction, let alone put him down. He continued to charge at the officers, firing, until a lucky pistol bullet hit him in the right place and killed him instantly.

Bird shot not powerful enough to stop a threat RELIABLY, it may work but when my life is on the line "may" just doesn't work for me.

[Infidel]

I'll probably get reamed too, but what the heck?
If you are concerned about having something in your car for self protection at close ranges, how about a "Judge"? It's not a 12 ga., but it is smaller, more manueverable and it is also somewhat concealable, if the weather and clothing agree. If you are in the car, trying to get a legal, pistol gripped shotgun out from under the seat in a hurry, you are going to be in trouble. The "Judge" is a 410 or 45LC. I don't own one, but they look like they would be a good option for you. You could stagger the loads if you like. If you want more firepower, get a 40 or 45 with a double stacked mag and practice shooting from all kinds of different shooting positions and with either hand. You don't know if your strong side will be injured or just plain too awkward to use.
I also was a paramedic with more than a few gsw's. I can say that #6 or #4 shot in a situation of under 20 feet, with a center mass hit is pretty much game over. There are simply too many holes to leak from, plus your lungs don't function well when they fizz. Seems most of the shotgun recipients were burglars that evidently didn't read the book about robbing occupied dwellings with cranky armed homeowners. The bright spot was that they seemed to stop all of the birdshot that hit them. The guys with the 00 buck had a few that made it through.

[para-frame]

No reaming, just the facts.

the judges barrel is too short to get good velocity/meet the FBIs 12"+ in ballistics gelatin recommendation with OOO buck (3 or 5 pellet, the standard 410 buck load), much less birdshot. out of a longer barrel (12"+) 410 is acceptable with buck but with birdshot (as with birdshot in all shotguns) it just doesn't make the minimum based on the FBI outlines.

You know as well as I do that 400 small holes are just an annoyance unless one of those pellets hits a major artery, the heart or lungs or to a lesser extent, a vein. Capillary bleeding from the few hundred holes is not going to lead to exsanguination, if the load of birdshot makes it to the lungs (something that is not a guaranty with the limited penetration capability of BS) that can go a long way in stopping the threat, of course what do you do for the 30 sec. to 3 min. it takes for the BGs lungs to fill with blood due to the small holes and have him pass out from hypovolemia or hypoxia?

Sure, normal people will run like hell if you draw a gun, BGs aren't normal people, normal people fear getting shot with anything, BGs aren't normal people, normal people will stop doing whatever they are doing when hit with anything, BGs aren't normal people, do you want to bet the guy kicking down your door at 2 AM is a normal person?

[x101airborne]

I will second the judge as a viable alternative.

As a former soldier, police officer, swat team member, current father and guardian of a household in a town full of crazies I will offer my opinion.

For use in the vehicle, especially from a short barreled weapon in a SHTF situation, I want the biggest buckshot (triple ought) in the most powerful 2 3/4 inch load I can get. I am not concerned with recoil, but I want to DESTROY whatever is out there through the car door, window and everything. I want his friends to get some shrapnel when I blow the dang thing off its hinges. Once we progress to vehicular defense, politics has failed and I intend to win. Plain and simple.

And we can all read and watch what someone else has done over and over and take it as gospel, but as part of a swat team where WE were putting our posteriers on the line, we wanted to KNOW the difference in walls and penetration. We built walls to building code from the 80's, 90's, etc. all through current standards with and without insulation. We built brick wall sections to simulate exterior walls, we built probably a dozen different scenarios and even simulated multiple wall sections (ie... shooting in one house and having a round going into another), and we conducted training in a current standard trailer house that had been damaged by a tree on one side and was going to be chopped up anyway. (I dont care for trailers, but that was a nice place)

The WORST offender as far as over penetration is concerned, was the 9mm out of an MP-5. That fmj round went through two interior walls with insulation, through two brick exteriors and two more interior walls with insulation before stopping in a third. (Yeah, all 9mm FMJ was canned and so was the MP-5). The triple ought would go through most any and all interior walls with ease and made us uncomfortable since we would be probably standing on the other side of the wall when one of us shot. Now Remington #4 high brass at 10 feet would easily penetrate any single wall with insulation, but was pretty much dead when it did. Most pellets would not imbed in another layer of sheetrock, so someone would get stung, but not really hurt all that bad. Well, not when compared to 000 Buck. The #4 would absolutely decimate a watermellon at 10 feet. (Stand in your biggest room and measure to any wall. It will be closer to 10 feet than you think.) There is no doubt of the lethality of birdshot (even the tiny #8 dove / quail loads) within 10 feet, but I digress.

For vehicles, we found 00 buck to do ok, but the 000 buck really shined through. And I realize you are talking about shooting from the inside out, we were shooting from the outside in. The only time we had any problems with the shotguns at close range is we were at a junkyard shooting through the hoods of cars to disable engines at close range. There were a couple BB's that would hit and bounce back off the engine block, but mainly on the old cast iron engines. These new ones would just bust up on top and come to a definate end. I just think an AOW shotgun is going to be a little hard to maneuver inside a vehicle. Other than that, would be a proper man / vehicle stopper.

Dont put too much into this recoil nonsense. When it happens, and I pray it never does, you wont feel a thing. Everything will take forever, nothing will be fast enough, you will take too long (in your mind) to do anything and you will wonder what the hell happened for the rest of your days. If you can use it, a shotgun is great when fine motor skills have dropped off the face of the Earth. Leave the birdshot for the house. It is great in it's own right in the right place.

[para-frame]

x101airborne, are you on ARFCOM? Your sig line is the same one I have had on ARFCOM for 4 years now, but I am sure I got it from someone else even before that.

Anyway, did your swat team switch to #4 bird shot after the tests? There is plenty of doubt on the lethality of bird shot at ten feet, again going back to the FBI standards which where set up exactly to determine the real world lethality of ammunition, #4 bird shot makes it only 6-7 in. in the test. Any round that can't make it 12 in. is just not powerful enough to assure a one shot stop under less then ideal circumstances. BGs don't usually just stand with their hands at their sides, squared up with you with no shirt on when they just kicked down your door in the middle of a cold night. they have there hands up (and potentially a weapon), they are bobbing and weaving, they are wearing thick winter clothing, all offer additional material that needs to be defeated before a round can even get to center mass.

[x101airborne]

Yeah, I kept that from my ARFCOM days. And my FORCOM days. And my.... well, you get the picture.

Lemme be clear.... Our ENTRY (I am not yelling, just emphasizing) team went to #4 birdshot to minimize the probability of wounding another officer through a wall. Our Guard and Perimiter teams stayed on 000 buck, wich for us was standard. Our street teams stayed with a slug first (mainly for engines, not soft targets) then followed up by 000. Then our outside perimiter stayed with the M-4 with remington 55 grain softpoints. When we ran warrants, we secured an entire block.

I know the penetration is low with the birdshot, but remember too, it tears off limbs, it liquifies guts and is the ballistic equivalent of being hit by a car at 70 MPH. Look at "Faces of Death" and look at all the people who died from shotgun wounds. Look at the wounds. Make your own determination. Then go out and shoot stuff like tin cans, various other targets, etc. If you are lucky enough to kill a pig you arent going to eat, shoot it with high base #4 at 10 feet and tell me what you think. A fresh dead pig of about 200 pounds shot at 10 feet with high #4 from a shotgun will show broken bones, good penetration through hide and ribs, broken shoulder, massive trauma to the soft outer tissue and shredded lungs without going through the other side.

And you and I both know the FBI has been full of manuer on more than one occasion.

[Rhoa4396]

... The "Judge" is a 410 or 45LC. I don't own one, but they look like they would be a good option for you.

I'm going to jump in for just a minute to weigh in here also. I don't own a judge because it just didn't make sense to me. At any normal defensive distance the 'spread' of a 410 is not that great. I'd much rather be hitting the target with the 45 LC.

Leaving my preconceived ideas out of the picture for a minute, one of the members brought a judge to the range last fall to try it out his new toy. While shooting 45 LC it did OK... but as soon as he put in .410 shells, everything went to hell in a hand basket. It would shoot 1 shot just fine but then it would lock up the cylinder solid. You could not work the action and you would have to muscle the gun open before you could bring the next loaded chamber into play. The ammo he was using was made for pistol but upon firing the 410's head would swell in "thickness" locking the cylinder solid. It became useless and it did it every time a 410 shell was fired.

Maybe it was bad ammo, maybe it was poor QC, maybe poor engineering... but I've never seen the need for the Judge and 410 shells and that just made me like them less.

Ken
=========

[para-frame]

It tears off limbs, it liquifies guts and is the ballistic equivalent of being hit by a car at 70 MPH.

Please tell me you are joking?

I have made my own determination after working EMS and as an ER nurse for years and seeing my fair share of GSWs. Seriously, if a guy who is shot center mass with BS can walk to the ambulance afterwords it doesn't matter if he dies hours later, he is/was still fully capable of killing you and your family before he succumbs to his injuries.

Yes the FBI has been (and will continue to, no doubt) be full of bovine scat, it was the FBIs Bovine scat that led to the deaths of the agents during the Miami shootout, the same shootout that brought about these "new" penetration standards.

[Nazgul]

I have a Serbu Super Shorty in 12 ga. Load and shoot slugs and 000 buck for recreation. Have never used it in a gunfight.

Looking for something easy to cast and reload, I made a tool that presses .600" diameter lead balls oval. Two of these fit into a Win white shotcup and weigh 1 1/8 oz. They get loaded with Bluedot-because I like the muzzle blast from the 6.5" barrel. Stay within 10"-12" at 25 feet. Loads of fun.

Don

[x101airborne]

Please tell me you are joking?

I have made my own determination after working EMS and as an ER nurse for years and seeing my fair share of GSWs. Seriously, if a guy who is shot center mass with BS can walk to the ambulance afterwords it doesn't matter if he dies hours later, he is/was still fully capable of killing you and your family before he succumbs to his injuries.

Yes the FBI has been (and will continue to, no doubt) be full of bovine scat, it was the FBIs Bovine scat that led to the deaths of the agents during the Miami shootout, the same shootout that brought about these "new" penetration standards.

Ya know.... If you have made your own determination based on personal experience, why are you going specifically against mine? We did our tests because our A$$es were on the line. We did not get the luxury of seeing what happened after at the ER, or down the street, or whatever. He / she should consider themselves lucky they were not shot TWICE in the chest to stop the fight. In fact,,,, if they were not shot twice, that should be prima facia evidence that the fight was over... reguardless of the outcome.

And if you are worried about hurting someone ..... Why in the heck are you packing a gun in the first place?

And NO ******, I am not kidding. If someone is truly in fear of life and limb, they should not be worried about shooting someone twice.

[para-frame]

I am NOT AGAINST you, if I came off that way I am sorry. I am against the bad advice being given, by anyone.

The only persons I am concerned about being hurt are innocent people who haven't done their research and are hoodwinked in to thinking loads/rounds that are wholey inappropriate for even thin skinned medium game are actually acceptable for SD.

In the case I was talking about, only one round was fired because the woman did not know how to reload her late husbands old single shot, when the police arrived she had locked her self in the bathroom and the BG was found in the garage attempting to take her car.

If someone is truly in fear of life and limb, they should not be worried about shooting someone twice.

Exactly, so why chose a substandard round/load?

Look, if you feel birdshot meets your needs after looking at the facts that is great, but just because birdshot meets your needs does not mean it will meet the needs of people who don't have a SWAT team armed with proper ammo backing them up.

[35remington]

Birdshot is given little credence as self defense ammo any more. It does not even come close to the penetration criteria thought necessary by those who study the topic in detail. Even at very close range.

One might wonder why law enforcement simply does not issue birdshot to its officers? The answer is obvious.

The "birdshot for defense" idea is passing, thankfully, as the use of this ammo is less than a good idea. Powder burn engagement ranges are hardly relevant even in a home, much less a car.

Please review the following link if you think birdshot is "all that" for any defensive use. It most assuredly is not.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=7&t=109958

The OP should give thought to having slugs on the ammo carrier on the gun, as penetration is far better than any buckshot through barriers.

If longer ranges for buckshot are contemplated, serious thought should be given to the FliteControl buckshot from Federal. Patterns are in the 5" diameter range at 25 yards, greatly extending the shotgun's effective range.

It is wiser to shorten the buttstock and keep it on an 18.5" pump. Such an arm still allows shouldering the weapon and much more accurate aimed fire while reducing overall length enough for effective employment while seated in an automobile. Mine rides in an open soft case beside me as I go about my business.

My short stocked 18.5 inch Mossberg may be effectively wielded inside a pickup cab as it is short enough to be pivoted to fire out either side of the truck without the barrel striking the windshield as it is turned from one side to the other of the vehicle. The stock may be tucked under the arm to reduce the projection of the barrel outside the vehicle when it is pointed out the driver's side window.

[Jamesconn]

Thanks for your help guys i was thinking about the judge and I decided that I am going to carry the judge special defender as my CCW when i come of age and i was thinkin about getting a full size for car but Im not a big fan of pistols #1 and I want to use the biggest gun i can get my hands on in any situation and theres enough room to hide a AOW 10in pistol gripped shotgun and semi auto so I can shoot one handed.

Yes it is legal to have a shotgun under 18in if it has a stock you have to pay a $200 tax because it is a sholder fired short barrel shotgun if it only has a pistol grip its only a $5 tax because it is considered an AOW I did research this prior to this question.

I am still going to have a full sized mossberg 590A1 in my car too the 20in version not the 6 shot but I want something I can shoot one handed buckled in from my drivers seat that kills whatever im shooting at in one shot. I am asking for load recommendations so I dont break my wrist or something else.

I plan on carrying my CCW judge with 000 buckshot