9mm leading with unknown lead hardness

[jeepguy242]

ok, check my troubleshooting process guys, and tell me if i am missing something.

the cast boolits i have been buying mic out at .3565, so i bought a lee .356 mold 124gn RNTL.

cast up 100 with an unknown hardness of lead that was mostly melted down wheel weights. 3.9 gn of win 231, (that is what i been shooting the storebough boolits with) 50 of them sized with a lee.356 sizer, 50 of them not sized, and mic out at .3569

ordered a lee hardness tester, so i can compare the hardness of my cast to the hardness of the storebought. the hardness tester will be here friday..


went to the range today and shot them, the 50 that were sized, started off real accurate, then started keyholing, took my barrel out, and it was leaded about all the way through, cleaned it after 20, shot the rest, and same thing

cleaned again, wasnt too hard with a brass brush and a warm barrel

so i think im gonna check the hardness of of the storebought boolits, and try to get the hardness of my castings close before i look into a larger size die.. maybe a .357 or .358

did i miss anything, any opinions are welcome...

[jeepguy242]

oh. forgot to mention i am using the 45/45/10 recipe i got here for lube

[FirstBrit]

ok, check my troubleshooting process guys, and tell me if i am missing something.

the cast boolits i have been buying mic out at .3565, so i bought a lee .356 mold 124gn RNTL.

cast up 100 with an unknown hardness of lead that was mostly melted down wheel weights. 3.9 gn of win 231, (that is what i been shooting the storebough boolits with) 50 of them sized with a lee.356 sizer, 50 of them not sized, and mic out at .3569

ordered a lee hardness tester, so i can compare the hardness of my cast to the hardness of the storebought. the hardness tester will be here friday..


went to the range today and shot them, the 50 that were sized, started off real accurate, then started keyholing, took my barrel out, and it was leaded about all the way through, cleaned it after 20, shot the rest, and same thing

cleaned again, wasnt too hard with a brass brush and a warm barrel

so i think im gonna check the hardness of of the storebought boolits, and try to get the hardness of my castings close before i look into a larger size die.. maybe a .357 or .358

did i miss anything, any opinions are welcome...

Hi, with a load like that the bullet alloy needs to be fairly tough since assuming your OAL being 1.045" the chamber pressure would be in the region of 30-31 k. psi. Thats asking a bit much from bullets based mainly on wheel weights with a BHN of about 11-12 at a guess. Generally for CB loads - other than just really light plinking loads - I would lokk at a slower powder than W-231. Personally I prefer powders like Hodgdon Longshot or VV 3N37 about 4,8 to 5,0 gr.

Best regards,

Adrian - Germany.

[GaryN]

"50 of them sized with a lee.356 sizer"

Okay you sized 50 of them with the .356 sizer. Did you mic. them after sizing to see what size the sizer really was?
Did you shoot the unsized boolits and if so did they also lead the barrel? Did you slug your bore to see exactly what you are dealing with?
Remember, number one thing to check is fit. That's before hardness.

[gefiltephish]

There are more than a few of us that have not had success with tumble lubing. I tried numerous methods and recipes before giving up. That was with both 9mm and 45acp. I now only conventional lube/size with a Lyman 450 and a Star.

My 5" XD leads with 2 different TC bullet designs which are both quite accurate. Using the Mihec 124hp bullet, I get no leading at all, but it's not nearly as accurate. In fact, I can shoot a handful of the Mihec bullets after the TC's to clean out the barrel. Same alloy, temp, even cast from the same pot of alloy in the same session, same powders, same sizing, same lube. Actually, the leading of the TC's is not incredibly bad. I can shoot a box of 50 and not have any noticeable decrease in accuracy. It just annoys me to no end that one bullet leaves the barrel clean and shiny (excepting powder residue) while the others leave (some) lead down the length of the barrel.

After 3 years, I give up. This gun and caliber has never really excited me anyway, so I'm giving it to my son who will likely just shoot jacketed.

I guess my point is that you may have a very uphill battle, or not. Good luck.

[MtGun44]

Hardness borders on irrelevance, with too hard being more often the problem than too
soft.

With 9mm, too small and too hard are the first, most common problems. Next is crummy
lube. You probably need .357 or .358 diam.

Most common commercial boolts are problematically too hard and have marginal crayola lube. There
are a few suppliers that are skilled, and make great boolits with good lubes, but many are just some
guy running a Magma and turning out a product that they know very little about.

Check this out:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737



Bill

[jeepguy242]

"50 of them sized with a lee.356 sizer"

Okay you sized 50 of them with the .356 sizer. Did you mic. them after sizing to see what size the sizer really was?
Did you shoot the unsized boolits and if so did they also lead the barrel? Did you slug your bore to see exactly what you are dealing with?
Remember, number one thing to check is fit. That's before hardness.

no, i didnt slug the bore, the thought of pounding a bullet down a match barrel makes me cringe, one slip and ouch,

i mic'ed a cast storebought that i have shot in this gun since new and it was .3563, and the sized boolit i cast mic'ed at .3562 my mold dropped them at .3567

yes, all the bullets did the same thing..

i would prefer to not slug the barrel, but if i hafta, then i hafta. i'm leaning on the lead might be almost pure. i'm gonna have to se when the hardness tester gets here. from the measurements i took, the tumble lube and hardness are the only things that i think are different between these 2 boolits..

thanks for your advice, whats your thought on this with the anwers to your question.

btw, this gun has never had a leading problem with the storebought cast made by a local guy here in NC, Ridge runner cast boolits.

[jeepguy242]

Hardness borders on irrelevance, with too hard being more often the problem than too
soft.

With 9mm, too small and too hard are the first, most common problems. Next is crummy
lube. You probably need .357 or .358 diam.

Most common commercial boolts are problematically too hard and have crummy crayola lube. There
are a few suppliers that are skilled, and make great boolits with good lubes, but many are just some
guy running a Magma and turning out a product that they know very little about.

Check this out:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737



Bill

the leading starts right after the chamber, and goes all the way through the barrel, after 50, the gun almost looks like a smoothbore.

i cannot push my thumbnail into the storebought, but i can make a pretty good indention with my nail in the one i cast. that is my reasoning for thinking its to soft..

had the leading been at the muzzle i would have thought lube was the problem or maybe just a slight patch somewhere in the bore, bu not the whole length.

[garym1a2]

WSF powder and a proper size boolit and make sure the seating die does not resize it and do not use the Lee fatory crimp die. I get over 300 rnds before I clean for lube and powder residue. Five passes with a brush and bore is clean.
I load my round to bairly make minor power factor USPSA 125.

[jeepguy242]

Hardness borders on irrelevance, with too hard being more often the problem than too
soft.

With 9mm, too small and too hard are the first, most common problems. Next is crummy
lube. You probably need .357 or .358 diam.

Most common commercial boolts are problematically too hard and have marginal crayola lube. There
are a few suppliers that are skilled, and make great boolits with good lubes, but many are just some
guy running a Magma and turning out a product that they know very little about.

Check this out:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=121737



Bill

one thing i just read from that is to check a pulled boolit and see if seating it in the case is undersizing it, i havent pulled one yet, but looking at the cast from the store, ther is a slight bulge in the case and mine do not have that bulge.. i think maybe the soft lead is getting squeezed to under .356 during seating...

thanks for the link, i am gonna pull one and see

[jeepguy242]

WSF powder and a proper size boolit and make sure the seating die does not resize it and do not use the Lee fatory crimp die. I get over 300 rnds before I clean for lube and powder residue. Five passes with a brush and bore is clean.
I load my round to bairly make minor power factor USPSA 125.

i found that the factory crimp die always did more hurt than good

[blikseme300]

No matter the alloy or lube, if the boolits are under size then you will have leading.

I typically don't slug the bore. I load and shoot boolits starting at .358 and typically don't need to test any more. Even using very soft alloy no leading and good accuracy.

I have a small collection of 9mm's and the only gotcha is that some European pistols have a tighter chamber and a shorter lede. My CZ's are typical of this.

Bliksem

[evan price]

9mm case is actually tapered, and if you are not flaring it enough then seating your boolit will reduce the diameter and you get leading. There's a sticky about using a 38/357 flare die for your 9mm to help with this.

I size my 9mm to .357 and flare enough and get no leading of note with range scrap water dropped to bhn about 12.

I gave up on the RN-124-TL Lee boolits because I prefer the 105-SWC regular groove boolit- less lead, more accurate, nicer holes. Using 1.025" oal & 4.8 grains PROMO powder which is Red Dot data (fast powder).

[jeepguy242]

thanks guys, i will check that also.. still need to pull a boolit and see if its betting undersized by the seating..

[jeepguy242]

i guess the one thing that i get stuck on, logic tells me that if i can buy cast boolits that work as .356, why cant i get mine to work at the same measurement.

[bpratl]

i guess the one thing that i get stuck on, logic tells me that if i can buy cast boolits that work as .356, why cant i get mine to work at the same measurement.

A year ago I purchased a new Beretta in 9mm at the same time I started casting.
I starting sizing to .356" and had 1" long slivers of lead while cleaning after shooting 50 rounds. I then sized the next casting to .357" and found 1/2 the lead.
I now size to .358" and have no more leading or key holing and a very clean barrel. My 92FS 9mm Beretta barrel slugged to .3565" so the .358" sizer did the trick.

[Larry Gibson]

Hardness borders on irrelevance, with too hard being more often the problem than too
soft.

With 9mm, too small and too hard are the first, most common problems. Next is crummy
lube. You probably need .357 or .358 diam.........Bill

MtGun44 is correct. I suggest a .358 if you "as cast" diameter is at least that or closer to it than .357. Your "mostly melted down WWs" should be a good alloy, would be better with 1 - 2% tin added though. Now for the crux of the problem; your lube is "45/45/10". Obviously it doesn't work because that was a lot of leading for WW alloy even at .356. I suggest if you find LLA to thick and gooey that you "improve" on it only by putting the bottle in a pan of hot water for 5 - 10 minutes to thin it out before application. Many times the cause of leading is with home made lubes.

Now before some want to post that "I use that formula and it works for me" note that you did not make the OPs lube. Something didn't work out right with his brew. There is no reason if straight LLA is applied as per the instructions that it will not work in a 9mm with that load at 1000 - 1100 fps. I've used straight LLA myself on a lot of 356-120-TC cast of WWs and sized at .359 over an almost identical load. I've shot them in numerous 9mms and several subguns with zero leading. Instead of using a home brewed concoction the OP should try LLA straight to see if it works. LLA will work just fine as is for it's intended purpose with the OPs load.

Larry Gibson

[Iron Mike Golf]

no, i didnt slug the bore, the thought of pounding a bullet down a match barrel makes me cringe, one slip and ouch...

1. Use a brass drift and a padded vise. No harm will come to your barrel. You really need to know groove dia.

2. Sounds like you need a bigger expander. There's a sticky on tuning a 38 Spl expander for use in 9mm.


9mm can be tough, but it's doable.

[MtGun44]

If you don't want to slug, just shoot fatter and fatter until the leading stops.

Brass rod and soft slug cannot hurt a steel barrel.

Bill

[jeepguy242]

thanks guys, looks like im gonna go bigger and try straight allox, you almost got me convinced to slug the bore, still not ready to take the plunge yet, but the videos i been watching seem like it's ok... now that i say that, my next post is gonna be how do i get a stuck boolit out of a barrel LOL....