FYI RCE Corbin NIX on Reloading Swages

[Reload3006]

I own and like RCE RIchard Corbin gear. I cant comment on what others have but The gear that I have from Richard is first rate. Ditez and Niemi are far superior but I dont think necessary and if your looking to drop a couple thousand dollars on a set of dies they no doubt are the best. Dave Corbin is more of a sales man that Richard and from what I have found out I think Richard is a lot more honest. The problem with both the corbin brothers are they arent getting any younger and as far as I can tell when they are gone so is the business. I think BT makes great dies its obvious and so does a lot of others. I talked to Richard and asked him why he no longer offered reloading press dies. Basically the jest of it was hes the lone man in his company and he decided he cant do it all anymore. so he concentrates where its more profitable for him and in his opinion offers a better system I agree obviously I bought his gear. But there is another option out there and that is Larry Blackmon his gear is good too but the down side to Dr. Blackmons gear is its small and fragile. Dr Blackmon also makes or used to make reloading press dies too but he also offers a conversion kit for reloading presses and it works just like the old corbin mighty mite. Effective and makes good bullets. I certainly hope that all the players bring swaging back because I thourouglly enjoy rolling my own. To me its as satisfying as reloading shooting anything else in our sport I think its all quality gear and every one has their preference I dont knock anyones gear it will all get the job done and i think the quality of the projectiles is more of a function of the swager than the dies or die maker.

[Swageocast]

I am sure Richard Corbin is doing the right and necessary things he needs to do for himself and his business.

BUT his Reloading press swages & related tooling I AM SURE will be missed !

Merry Christmas to you all.

[Jammer Six]

Having owned an operated 3 different construction companies, even after swearing I'd never go back, I can say this.

I changed the way I did business many, many times, and I did so for many reasons.

I changed the way I did business, the materials I used, the area I'd operate in and the hours I'd operate:

• Because I didn't like the salesclerk at a certain lumber yard.
• Because a certain lumber yard would load with a forklift.
• Because a certain lumber yard didn't own a forklift.
• Because a certain supply yard had a dozen expert forklift operators.
• Because the flow of traffic on I-5 in the afternoon favored our exit.
• So I could make more money.
• Because I didn't like a certain client.
• Because I wanted to sleep in slightly.
• So I could make more money. In theory.
• Because a certain client had a smokin' hot wife.
• Because I thought I could make more money.
• Because I bought a new truck.
• So I could quit earlier in the afternoon.
• Because I raised my prices.
• Because I lowered my prices.
• So I could avoid union shops.
• So I could avoid non-union shops.
• So I could bid on public work.
• So I could avoid public work.
• So I could work as a sub.
• So I could work only as a general.
• Because a certain client was a stomp-down ******.
• Because a certain client talked too much.
• Because a certain client had a wife who never got dressed.
• Because a certain client had bad breath.
• Because a certain client smoked pot.
• Because a certain client drank.
• Because a certain client didn't drink.
• Because I thought I could make more money.
• Because I never wanted to work on another retaining wall.
• So I could bid more retaining wall work.
• Because Jxxx Sxxxxxxxx pissed me right off.
• Because someone told me I'd never make it if I did so.
• To prove I was right.
• Because I wanted to.
• Because I had a headache when I found out the results of a previous change.
• Because I could.

The bottom line is quite simple.

None of you have any idea why Richard Corbin changed the way he does business, none of you have any idea why David Corbin changed the way he does business.

[Swageocast]

Gee that is quite a laundry list ,,,,ya know that would be a GREAT country song ,,,or perhaps sung to the 12 Day of christmas???

Cause I dident like the salescleark,,,,,,,,

Cause I bought new truck,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Cause he pissed me offff,,,,,,,,,,,,,

To prove I was Right,,,,,,,

Cause he had a Smokin,,,,, hot wiiiife !!!!!!!

Get it,,,,, like 12 Days of christmas. oh well.

And YOUR absolutly RIGHT WE REALLY DON"T KNOW why ,,he changed his methods,,,,OTHER than what Reload3006 mentioned!

BUT what WE DO KNOW,,,,, is HE DOESENT SELL reloading press swages ANYMORE!

[Jammer Six]

12 roofs with shingles
11 hardwood floors
10 dug out ditches
9 concrete driveways
8 waterproof basements
7 doors a swinging
6 brand new kitchens

FIVE JOBS THAT PAY!

4 sinks for bathrooms
3 walls retaining
2 sets of windows

AND BECAUSE HE HAD A SMOKIN' HOT WIFE!

[Swageocast]

YEP THere YOU GO ,,,Put it to Music ,,,,Slap it up on YOUTUBE ,,,,IT GOES VIRAL and befor you know it you can retire on royalties

NICE use of coler,,,,,KUDOS.

Merry Christmas to YOU and Yours.

[GerryM]

Corbin Lets see it kind went like this It will cost you x dollars. Me Ok then how about?
I have the specs for J4 jackets it shows X is the runout at the base. Me OK Corbin But I don't think you can make as good a jacket as J4. Conclusion Hummm So you can make the dies but you are unwilling because. Possabilitys 1 you sell jackets 2 you pomised J4 not to make any dies for a new company 3 you are just tto lazy to make them. 4 you have no idea of what the operator can do. end of story

[Houndog]

Folks,
I own 10 sets of swage dies in both carbide and steel INCLUDING a set made by Corbin. I've been making Benchrest bullets around 20 years and can tell you when you MUST hold tolerances of .0003 or less to make bullets that WILL be competitive you find out REAL fast which dies and presses will get the job done! Someone in another post mentioned Bart's bullets (owned by Bart Sauter). I KNOW BarT personally and he uses RCBS presses modified by Neimi as well as their dies. Knights bullets, (owned by Brady Knight and is Bart's mentor) also uses the SAME presses as well as dies made by Neimi, Dietch and occasionally Ross Sherman. Allen Arnette uses presses modified by himself and has dies made by Neimi, Dietch and Roscach. Jef Fowler and Ed Watson ( the guys that taught me to make bullets) used RCBS presses and Roscach, Dietch and Pendell dies. ALL these bullet makers make, or did make in the case of ED and Jef, WORLD CLASS match winning bullets! You won't see Corbins, Blackmon or SAS equipment anywhere near these guy's shops. I AM NOT saying you can't make GOOD bullets on Corbins, Blackmon or SAS equipment, you certainly can, But when you MUST make the absolute very best bullets available they aren't in the runnung.

I don't expect anyone to take what I'm saying at face value! I will invite anyone making bullets to my home and let them make a few bullets on my modified RCBS press with Dietch, Neimi, or Sherman carbide dies so you can judge what i'm saying for yourself. The dies ARE that much better!

BT Sniper hasn't emailed me back about his wide meplat, lead to the tip bullets, but I think he's onto something! I think his heavy for jacket length bullet shows lots of promise. I also think he's doing excellent work on his press mods and what dies I've seen. I wouldn't hesitate to buy his equipment if i were looking at steel dies or starting out. In fact I think I would prefer his equipment over Corbin's (Richard or Dave) or C&H.

[Mountain Prepper]

Gentlemen...

Proof we need proof.

We have hashed over the steel v. carbide before.

Until I see actual documented (blind and unbiased) PROOF I will revert to the general consensus proposed by the few who have at least some actual testing.

The two reasons that continue to come to the top on this issue. This is taking into consideration: same caliber, same set of rifles, same bullet design, same quality components, same care in selecting the components.

The bullet design: ogive, base, meplat, shank, core, jacket.

The components and manufacture: core weight, core composition, jacket quality, jacket sorting and selection, jacket weight, care in manufacture, careful sorting and selection, pressure/timing/stroke, die adjustment.

I would say that we could take same design to design bullets in the same caliber using our own BT Sniper, Corbin, Blackmon, Niemi, and Detsch (and others) and conduct a blind unbiased testing using the same set of rifles and shooters...

We would find, I propose (as a working hypothesis) that with equal care in manufacture and equal quality components that there would be no significant (statistically) differences in performance in same design bullets. Unless there were some severe egregious die problems (say .309 v. .308 v. 307 variances) or significant bullet design differences (base and ogive).

Anyone care for documented unbiased witnessed blind testing? It will be the only way this will ever go from conjecture to fact, it remains mythology and marketing until that time.

I have stated before that the re-swaging of the bullet in the rifle’s barrel is more significant.

[Reload3006]

one other thing to consider is not everyone is out to make a bench rest bullet. I have a lot of friends that shoot benchrest. I used to be a member of the Bench rest rifle club in Warrengton, Mo. If that is your trip great I am happy for you. My motives were not competition shooting. My motives are I want to be able to have bullets when I want them the way I want them for what I want them for. With swage equipment I have all the above options. Do I expect to ever recover my tooling costs? Maybe but probably not. I am not shooting for trophy or money but when i down an elk or deer I dont think that hes going to be any more pissed if i dont hit my aim point by .050 of an inch. he will be just as dead. If I were shooting long range competition .050 could cost me a pay check. so I think that application is more important than the who. I still contend that unless the person making the bullet is doing his part the Niemi or deitch dies arent going to make any better bullet than any other.

[GerryM]

Your both correct toollsteel will make wondeful bullets but not better bullets then Carbide
With tool steel you need to use quite a bit more lube on the pointing opertion. This leaves very slight swage marks on the bullets. The marks have nothing to do with accuracy.
The B&A dies I have along with the Pindell dies are tool steel. Both make wonderful hollow points with a large open point suitable for hunting and Target shooting.
Yes also the Operator has a lot to do with quality of tthe finished bullets'
Proper technique is a must .

[BT Sniper]

Taking a break from opening presents here Merry Christmas.

This thread seems to have a lot of potential for valuable info and certainly some well informed opinions and facts from those that have used various dies. That being said I'm not sure what questions we are trying to answer anymore in this thread? I do enjoy the comments from those of you that have took the time to chime in on the dies you use, some very expensive. I enjoy the business opinions from those that have been there. So what can we conclude up to this point?

my thoughts based on what has been said and I could be all wrong ????

- most benchrest bullets are 30 cal or less which is easily made on good reloading presses with slight mods in design of the press

- who knows what, or why corbin decideds to sell, or not sell, obvioulsy it is his choice and most choices are made for business or personal reasons

- there are other die makers out there that make very good dies too

- dies come in all different shape, design and material

- the demands of the shooter varries from match to hunting to plinking

- die costs varry with the demands of the shooter and reputation of the die maker

- accuracy is? ............... ever changing? the results of many factors? a bit of magic? pure skill? pure luck? dependent on the shooting gods? ???????

- a good bullet is ? .......... See above definition of accuracy

How could one get a unbiased test from varrious bullets made from varrious dies???? Certainly couldn't do it all in the same gun? I think the only way to possibly measure the quailty of a paticular bullet made from a paticular die is measure the size of the group. I'm sure there has been plenty of records keep of such data in the many years of compition shooting out there. This is where the above mentioned names keep coming up which one would have to believe leads to verry good dies.

So back to the shooters needs and demands. Match? Hunting? Plinking?

When I set out to make and shoot my own bullets my first accuracy requirment was that the bullet exit the barrel in the same dirrection as it was pointing Then as I started to make more pistol bullets 2" @ 25 yrds was a good accuracy goal. Then I made my first 30 cal rifle bullets and would have been happy with minute of canalope accuracy with bullets made from scrap brass. Much to my supprise and shear delight, I was able to hold about 3/4 MOA with these bullets made in old SAS dies. So I went hunting with them and took a nice mule deer. Then I made my own set of 30 cal dies and again I would have been happy with under 2 MOA and was pleased to see again impressive results with consistant groups under 1MOA wich was good enough for all my hunting needs and certainly plinking needs. Then one morning I shot a .215 group with these bullets made from scrap brass which certainly boosted my confidence and made me think I was possible of making a very good set of dies.

I have not shot benchrest before but I can imagine the demands of such a sport is extreem. At the moment I am very happy to offer dies to cater to the hunting and plinking croud. Maybe some day my abilities will get better and groups get smaller but to make dies to such exacting tollerances that benchrest shooters demand........... well that is a heck of a acomplishment and my hat is off to the makers of such dies.


A bit of rambling on my part here but as I said I certainly enjoy everyone's coments on the various dies they are using and accuracy they are trying to achieve. I would like to see a thread on this sight that may be dedicated towards more advanced swage techniques geared toward getting the most accuracy out of our home made swaged bullets. Till then I say good shooting and Swage On!

BT

[BT Sniper]

BT Sniper hasn't emailed me back about his wide meplat, lead to the tip bullets, but I think he's onto something! I think his heavy for jacket length bullet shows lots of promise. I also think he's doing excellent work on his press mods and what dies I've seen. I wouldn't hesitate to buy his equipment if i were looking at steel dies or starting out. In fact I think I would prefer his equipment over Corbin's (Richard or Dave) or C&H.

Houndog,

Thanks for the compliments. Sorry if I missed getting back to you in an email. I certainly look forword to discusing potential bullet upgrades and accuracy designs. Send me another PM or Email reminder and we can discuss it further, or here on the open form as well.

Good shooting

BT

[Mountain Prepper]

That being said I'm not sure what questions we are trying to answer anymore in this thread?

Some could well use a new thread.

- accuracy is? ............... ever changing? the results of many factors? a bit of magic? pure skill? pure luck? dependent on the shooting gods? ???????

A good point - to start testing of a working hypothesis terms need set agreed upon definitions and set questions that need answers that can or will be answered by testing.

So the above is a very important question.

- a good bullet is ? .......... See above definition of accuracy

Same, but in my last post I was talking about the tools to make the bullet and the complete lack of answers that are based on anything other than marketing.

Honestly I don’t care what the answer is, (as you expand on later in this post, I have various tools that I feel are satisfactory for my uses) but I want an answer based on facts, not that same marketing.

How could one get a unbiased test from varrious bullets made from varrious dies????

The simple answer is similar design features - I would be willing to provide 100 well made bullets in .308 from an 8s VLD/ULD set of dies, weights from 100 to 200 grains with J-4 jackets - I prefer flat base for ranges within supersonic, but I have dies for rebated boat tail if needed.

Certainly couldn't do it all in the same gun?

Testing, real and true testing is an act of removing the variables so yes a set of rifles, ranges, shooters and loads will all have to be overlapping to produce results.

I think the only way to possibly measure the quailty of a paticular bullet made from a paticular die is measure the size of the group.

Yes, under various conditions with careful statistical analysis.

I'm sure there has been plenty of records keep of such data in the many years of compition shooting out there.

Too many variables, competition is not testing and testing is not a competition sadly that same competition only shows who is willing to spend the time to work up the best load for a particular bullet and develop the skills needed, it by its very nature would not give us the results that would answer the question - are carbide dies actually capable of making bullets that are more accurate in the same rifles (apples to apples) as steel dies?

This is where the above mentioned names keep coming up which one would have to believe leads to verry good dies.

Other variables could be in play, the very act of a shooter choosing to swage for improved accuracy itself could change enough to throw this off.

Then one morning I shot a .215 group with these bullets made from scrap brass which certainly boosted my confidence and made me think I was possible of making a very good set of dies.

And I believe you can, will and the access to your product may well produce some changes in the shooting world (big or small is to be seen).

I have not shot benchrest before but I can imagine the demands of such a sport is extreem.

They are technical, sadly there is also an inordinate amount of mythology and superstition the technical is productive the superstition is not.

At the moment I am very happy to offer dies to cater to the hunting and plinking croud. Maybe some day my abilities will get better and groups get smaller but to make dies to such exacting tollerances that benchrest shooters demand........... well that is a heck of a acomplishment and my hat is off to the makers of such dies.

I think you sell yourself short, I don’t thing that it will take all that long as you are well on your way now. I work in a very skill demanding field and I have learned a long time ago skill is its own master and only depends on an introductory learning curve.

[BT Sniper]

Well put MP.

A lot of potential this thread still has with severial potential additional side threads I think.

I got out of your reply a question that may have been the just of part of this thread. Is carbide dies better then steel?????? and can steel dies make as good of bullets as carbide dies? Welll now........ I don't know the exact answer having never used carbide. I read that carbide is easier to use do to reduced friction and that's about as much as I know about the difference. What I do know is that I am learning to make a better set of steel dies and I imagine it may be a LONG time before I own a set of carbide dies simply because of price at the moment.

Thanks for the confidence boost as well. Tell you the truth, I think a good set of steel dies all comes down to a good reamer. I'm getting better at making my own reamers now so hopefully I can expand a bit on my riffle caliber dies. It is a good time for sure. I think I even got your skill/master/learning curve refrence, I can certainly attest to a long learning curve.

Well as always, I say Good shooting and swage On. I look foward to hearing more about die designs, makes, and the strive for accuracy.

BT

[u.p. north]

It all comes down to the polishing in a set of dies and molds on ease of ejection and use. As far as getting a good finish with the reamer and so on , rigidity in the machine and setup come into play, and a few other factors. Also about a press, I think a solid press with less twist factor and a few other variable come into play. I think my press (the cast boolit press here I have been offering) is far superior to the competition due to the steps I take in machining all the pieces. I am not going to hijack this thread and make it about my u.p. north press or anything else. I am just going to say , you get what you pay for in buying dies,presses, and so on. Also I agree with most everybody has said on this post and most other posts here on this forum , if I don't I usually don't speak up cause most everyone has there opinion and can find fault in anything one says and does.And I am also looking forward to reading and hearing about what you all have to say on ,the different types of designs. As they say why reinvent the wheel, but I think improvements can be made on anything.
I have learned alot here and am looking forward to learning more.

[Mountain Prepper]

I got out of your reply a question that may have been the just of part of this thread. Is carbide dies better then steel?????? and can steel dies make as good of bullets as carbide dies? Welll now........ I don't know the exact answer having never used carbide. I read that carbide is easier to use do to reduced friction and that's about as much as I know about the difference.

If anyone has a set that will make an 8s VLD flatbase I bet we could rustle up two shooters willing to document and be unbiased.

I have a set of steel 8s VLD and I would be willing to make 100 bullets to be split amongst two shooters, if someone with a similar point design with a carbide set is willing to exchange 1/2 the components we are well on the way to eliminate some issues.

To work this issue 50 from each need to be point formed with the other set of dies - I can go into the details later.

I truly don not care what the results are, I simply want an answer that is based on facts.

I think I even got your skill/master/learning curve refrence

Every skill has talent that is born to that skill - Raphael, Leonardo Da Vinci, and Michelangelo were not trained to that level of skill they were born to it, I am convinced by the evidence and observation that this crosses over many skills from managing people to cooking.

[Utah Shooter]

I'm not sure what questions we are trying to answer anymore in this thread? BT

I was lost after 6-7 posts.

[Jammer Six]

I like the idea of impartial testing.

Here's what we need: we need at least two boolit makers, who can make the same boolit.

We need at least one shooter, who can load and shoot the boolit.

And we need one controller.

The controller will receive the boolits from the boolit makers, and label them. He will be the only one who knows which boolits were made by which maker.

He will then send them on to the shooter, who will load, shoot and evaluate the results without knowing who made which boolit. He will report his findings according to the labels put on the boolits by the controller.

By using a controller, three or more makers and two or more shooters could be used, and the whole process would be double blind.

The criteria for evaluation would then be open to discussion.

In my opinion, which has never been humble, a double blind test would go a long, long ways towards establishing the truth, and I vastly prefer that type of result, whatever it is, rather than the "I shot 1xxx with my Abcccc Dffff boolit, and so it's the best ever!" results we have so much of now.

The scientific method is a wonderful thing, and the more of it we use, the gooder life will be.

[Reload3006]

I dont mean to break anyones bubble but shooting is not going to determine the better die or the better bullet. especially if the bullet is what is being tested. that would introduce too many variables. if a bullet is manufactured correctly with the proper dimensions there is no reason on this earth it should not fly the same as any other bullet made with a different set of dies if it also has the same exact dimensions. If materials and dimensions are the same they will fly the same common sense and physics tell us that.