Wolf problem documentary

[mtnman31]

http://cryingwolfmovie.com/

Documentary about the wolf problem plaguing Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming. It is a documentary and of course has an agenda but, I feel it is particularly of interest to residents of those states as well as hunters, ranchers and outdoors men alike. I can say from a personal perspective that the hunting in Montana has definitely experienced a major decline since I was a kid and my grandpa introduced me to hunting. I personally know ranchers and outfitters that are dealing with the wolves and their sentiments echo many of those in the video. The documentary is from the perspective of those affected by wolf reintroduction and not from the distant perspective of politicians and city dwelling environmentalists.

Warning - It's an hour long, not some 30 second youtube blog. Well worth it if this subject interests you.

Mods, if this would be appropriate in another forum, feel free to move it.

[Bret4207]

We have eco-preservationists back here that want to reintroduce wolves. Why? I have no idea since we already have a very large coyote population, and our coyotes are large too- 60 pounds and upwards ins;t uncommon at all. DNA research verifies they have wolf DNA. Why do we need another major predator? No reason at all other than the city peoples wish to hear a freakin' wolf howl.

Funny, when I was "debating" this idea with some of the eco-preservationist types I suggested that if they wanted to reintorduce a native species they should look at Elk. They had absolutely ZERO interest in that. So there is an agenda here, I don't understand it, but it's there.

[Bad Water Bill]

Very interesting and educational.

Thanks for taking your time to find and post it here.

[jsizemore]

Funny, when I was "debating" this idea with some of the eco-preservationist types I suggested that if they wanted to reintorduce a native species they should look at Elk. They had absolutely ZERO interest in that. So there is an agenda here, I don't understand it, but it's there.

I think their argument will be that the wolves and coyotes will keep the prey species in check and there's no need for us to hunt and have a firearm. If you listen to the Dems they say there is no reason for folks to own an assault rifle or 'street sweeper' shotgun since it wouldn't be used for hunting. All my guns are for use on vamints regardless of how many legs they use to get around.

[RugerFan]

I think their argument will be that the wolves and coyotes will keep the prey species in check and there's no need for us to hunt and have a firearm.

Exactly. That has always been my take on wolf reintroduction. Mostly an anti-hunting angle.

[fatnhappy]

We have eco-preservationists back here that want to reintroduce wolves. Why? I have no idea since we already have a very large coyote population, and our coyotes are large too- 60 pounds and upwards ins;t uncommon at all. DNA research verifies they have wolf DNA. Why do we need another major predator? No reason at all other than the city peoples wish to hear a freakin' wolf howl.

Funny, when I was "debating" this idea with some of the eco-preservationist types I suggested that if they wanted to reintorduce a native species they should look at Elk. They had absolutely ZERO interest in that. So there is an agenda here, I don't understand it, but it's there.

FYI Brett, in case you weren't already aware, the reintroduction of Elk is being talked about in NY. There was a series of public meetings locally on a specific plan to reintroduce them in the Catskills or finger lakes.
The following is from the DEC website.


Fish and Wildlife Species Restorations

During the last half century there have been several major success stories of wildlife restoration in New York. These include among others the woodduck, and wild turkey (70 kb pdf) which were either at very low levels or absent from New York and now are common. Others include the bald eagle, which was recently downlisted from endangered to threatened in NY, and the peregrine falcon which has been returned to many areas of NY. Other efforts, such as the attempted restoration of lynx in conjunction with SUNY in the 1980's, have not resulted in successful restoration.

There are currently active restoration efforts ongoing for river otter in Western New York and the bog turtle in the Hudson Valley. In addition, we are currently working with the lake sturgeon, round whitefish, and paddlefish (see the February 2000 issue of The Conservationist for more on paddlefish restoration).

At the current time, there are proposals from private organizations to restore the wolf to the Adirondacks (biological feasibility study now available) and elk to the southern tier of New York. There are ongoing studies to determine if either of these proposals are biologically feasible and socially acceptable. In response to interest in moose several years ago, the Department proposed speeding the return of moose to Northern New York. While biologically feasible, there was not adequate public support for an active restoration program and so the moose is being allowed to return naturally (see the February 2000 issue of The Conservationist for more on the status of moose in New York).

[MtGun44]

If the wolves kill all the "excess" deer, elk and moose, then nobody will be doing any
signifcant amount of hunting, so the whole 'gun culture' shrivels and dies in 50-75 yrs.

Bill

[Harter66]

I'm wondering how much that earth 1st anti capitalism fella makes every year .

I always thought bringing the wolves back was a bad idea for the reasons mentioned I didn't know it was that bad. I do know that the hunting all over has delined .

If there's no room for hunting w/a healthy wolf population how'd all those Native Americans get by? Oh right I remember , by taming and training wolves to hunt wolves. I have no facts to back that up but I'm pretty confident I can pay somebody enough to make it true.

Its funny in a way that all I see any more is some hidden plan and white wash bs. Why just this morning it occured to me that while Einstien was a genius he was also a (potentialy) a PO'd man of Jewish birth looking for retribution. I've always given everything benefit of doubt and worked to see both sides but more and more I don't give tinkers dam if there's another side . Is just 1 more example of all that's wrong.

[cgtreml]

Excellent video. Hope everyone watches it. Very informative. If it hasn't affected you yet it will.

[Bret4207]

FYI Brett, in case you weren't already aware, the reintroduction of Elk is being talked about in NY. There was a series of public meetings locally on a specific plan to reintroduce them in the Catskills or finger lakes.
The following is from the DEC website.


Fish and Wildlife Species Restorations

During the last half century there have been several major success stories of wildlife restoration in New York. These include among others the woodduck, and wild turkey (70 kb pdf) which were either at very low levels or absent from New York and now are common. Others include the bald eagle, which was recently downlisted from endangered to threatened in NY, and the peregrine falcon which has been returned to many areas of NY. Other efforts, such as the attempted restoration of lynx in conjunction with SUNY in the 1980's, have not resulted in successful restoration.

There are currently active restoration efforts ongoing for river otter in Western New York and the bog turtle in the Hudson Valley. In addition, we are currently working with the lake sturgeon, round whitefish, and paddlefish (see the February 2000 issue of The Conservationist for more on paddlefish restoration).

At the current time, there are proposals from private organizations to restore the wolf to the Adirondacks (biological feasibility study now available) and elk to the southern tier of New York. There are ongoing studies to determine if either of these proposals are biologically feasible and socially acceptable. In response to interest in moose several years ago, the Department proposed speeding the return of moose to Northern New York. While biologically feasible, there was not adequate public support for an active restoration program and so the moose is being allowed to return naturally (see the February 2000 issue of The Conservationist for more on the status of moose in New York).

I happened to be in the Tahawus Upper Works the day they helo'd a lynx onto a mountain top. They put the lynx in an area where they had no prey other than red squirrels, porkies and Blue Jays. naturally the lynx beat feet outta there and all got hit on I-87 IIRC. Dumb.

I note they want to put the wolves in Northern NY where we already have large predators, coyotes, bear and cougar, but to put the elk in the south. Figures.

[btroj]

We have way to many biologists and others working in these agencies who don't have any first hand knowledge of or experience in the wild. They know what their books say but they have never been to the area nor have they spent time in the outdoors.
This is an example of book knowledge and "studies" having little relevance in the real world.

I see the same right now in northern MO. River otters were reintroduced to a few small streams. The otters soon found that the local farm ponds made for much easier fishing. Ever think aout how quickly a 6 acre pond is whipped out for fishing when an adult male otter eats aout 2.5 to 3 pounds of fish a day? Luckily my father can get depredation permits from the local game warden. Many otters have met their demise in that pond.

[Olevern]

If the wolves kill all the "excess" deer, elk and moose, then nobody will be doing any
signifcant amount of hunting, so the whole 'gun culture' shrivels and dies in 50-75 yrs.

Bill

plus one,

The antis are dedicated to their cause even if it takes that long, they have been suffering setbacks in the near term, so are looking out long term for any way to reduce us and our influence.

[montana_charlie]

Its funny in a way that all I see any more is some hidden plan and white wash bs.

It's probably been ten years since there was much talk about 'The Buffalo Commons', but I bet that crowd is still out there ... and trying to work us in that direction.

I just never figured out where they intended to put all of those people who had to disappear ...

CM

[Bad Water Bill]

It's probably been ten years since there was much talk about 'The Buffalo Commons', but I bet that crowd is still out there ... and trying to work us in that direction.

I just never figured out where they intended to put all of those people who had to disappear ...

CM

Real easy solution.

In the TOMB STONE GARDEN
Somewhere 20 miles back in Yellowstone.

Pine caskets and NO headstone. Very environmentally friendly. Might even do away with the caskets and save some more trees

[MT Chambers]

I wouldn't worry about it, by the sounds of it you won't be able to shoot/hunt on public land anyways.....You guys are getting a taste of the kind of government we have here in Kanuckistan.

[Bob Krack]

Wow, I don't know what to say 'cept----

Wolf populations control Coyote populations. BUT - which is the larger problem?

Wolf is not a "bad" critter, just don't fit in with human nor domestic animal populations.

Nomex on, but NOT advocating wolf re-introduction anywhere in the lower 48.

Bob

[MtGun44]

If you read Lewis and Clark, the non-agricultural Indians were often starving, and game
was very scarce in the plains and most of the foothills. Also, they nearly starved to death
on pure deer and elk meat, no fat and only protein will kill you eventually. ONly the Mandan,
who were an agricultural + hunting people with excellent land and stable large villages were doing
really well.

Wolves keep the grazers, other than buffalo, WAY, WAY down from where our current levels
are.

I hunted HARD on horseback, mostly in snow, for a full week just south of Yellowstone a few years
ago and we saw ZERO elk tracks, a few dozen deer tracks, 1 set of moose tracks and lots of wolf and
bear tracks in the snow. Some days we covered almost 40 miles, which a bunch of you know is a
dawn to dark a$$ buster in the saddle all day trying to cut a trail of elk. One in our party saw ONE
elk in low country, out of the snow, we saw no other sign. The outfitters quit that country after
40 yrs and 2 generations of making money bringing in hunters. Wolves did it the worst right
at Yellowstone, because that is where they were the densest. Reports then were of elk being pushed
way west into flat ag country in Idaho to get away from the wolves.

Bill

[jsizemore]

Around 2000 we went to Ridgway, Pa for a shoot. Booked the room late and had to stay in St Mary's a short drive through the mountains. We had to stop for the elk crossing the road since they were the size of cattle. When we stopped to eat breakfast before going to the range we asked the locals how they liked the elk being reintroduced to the area. Most folks didn't like the obvious car crashes but especially disliked their gardens being wiped out overnight by roaming herds. They said it cost more to build a fence that was strong enough to keep them out then what they saved going to the grocery store. Big varmints for the city folks to look at when their on vacation.

[trench]

Most gunowners don't hunt anyway, and it's been that way for decades. Most owners own only pistols, and most of them don't shoot them at all. They have a .25 Raven or a Bryco 380, and that's that.

[mtnman31]

I think the overall point isn't whether gun owners hunt, use their guns regularly, or even that wolves could somehow lead to future anti-gun legislation. One of the main points is that folks living in other areas and states are making decisions that impact the folks living in the areas where wolves have had an adverse impact. People in wolf reintroduction areas are left to deal with the problems created by other people with little to no real interest in the communities affected. How would some fellow in Florida feel about a group of people who don't go to the beach and live in Oklahoma pushing to get a couple hundred great white sharks dumped off the coast? (not a perfect comparison but you get the point) The tourism industry would likely suffer in the areas where the sharks are put in. That would leave the locals trying to find a different way to make a living and dealing with the sharks. How fair to the locals would that be...

I think the real political message in this whole situation is that the federal government needs to step back and let states manage themselves.