No.4 Enfield giving me a fit!

[eka]

I recently acquired a very nice No.4 MK1 Enfield in full military trim produced at Maltby in 1943. It has a two groove barrel that is very nice and shiny with no pitting. The crown looks to be in good shape as well. I obtained the following measurements: Bore: .3025 Groove: .313 Throat: .315 Inside fired case neck: .319. I made sure all the screws etc. were snug and removed all traces of copper.

I loaded some Fat 30s that dropped at .315 and ran them through a .315 sizer. FWFL lube, Gator gas check, WLR primer, 16.0 grains of 2400 with 1 grain of dacron. Boolit seated to 2.919 (base of case neck). Fired from bags at 50 yards. 10-12 inch groups with all boolits making nice long keyholes. No leading. I thought well, obviously I need a bigger diameter boolit to get more stability.

So, I paper patched a 311284 as cast with two wraps of .002 notebook paper. The final diameter was .320. I was thinking, longer boolit plenty fat, should stabilize, but probably won't chamber. Well, I seated it at 3.013 in unsized cases, it chambered fine and was further seated upon chambering to 2.928 firmly against the lands. Good neck tension. Again, 16.0 2400 with 1 grain of dacron. This time I was pretty confident I had made the necessary adjustments for success. Fired from bags at 50 yards. Two to three foot groups. No leading. Mostly keyholes or oblong entry, but not all of them.

I'm obviously left scratching my head on this one. This rifle has an above average bore and the dimensions seem pretty well in line. It has a great trigger as military rifles go. I would really appreciate some thoughts and ideas on which direction I need to go next. By the way, this is my first experience with the .303 Enfield. And I must say, I really like this rifle. And that's saying a lot considering how it's shooting.

Keith

[atr]

all your dimensions look very good....and from my experience a two-groove has always shot well. I am frankly puzzled because I have owned 4 different No.4's and never had the problem you are describing.

My first suggestion would be to size the boolit at groove dia. = 0.313 or at the most 0.314
MY second suggestion is stop using dacron with the 2400

I have also found that IMR 4895 is better for this case size with reduced loads.

[longbow]

I have 2 No. 5's and a No. 4.

Both No. 5's are 5 groove and have generous throats and bores.

I got poor accuracy using "J" bullets until I knurled them raising diameter to 0.313".

I also got poor accuracy from Lyman 314299 that cast to 0.312" so undersize for my 0.314" grooves and 0.315" + throats. I lapped that mould out to cast at 0.316" and got decent accuracy.

I got on board the first NOE group buy for the 316299 which casts at 0.3155" in my alloy so perfect! These shoot quite well.

I also decided to buy the NOE 0.314" X 129 grain. as a plinker and lapped it to 0.316" (it cast perfectly to 0.314" as it was supposed to). These were not shooting so well until I noticed bulges in the necks of loaded rounds. These little boolits have narrow driving bands and it seems my "factory" neck sizing was swaging my fat boolits.

Annealing helped reduce the swaging some.

I made a new expander button to inside neck size to 0.314" for my sized to 0.315" boolits. Accuracy is now good.

Also, I find that my .303's like harder alloy than I am used to so often oven heat treat with good results.

Try pulling a couple of boolits and checking diameter. If much under what you size them to then they are being swaged by the case neck which may be part of the problem.

I have read that 2 groove barrels are often hard to get to shoot cast in as well so if 2 groove that may be part of your problem.

So, short story:

- size to just under throat diameter
- use hard alloy and/or oven heat treat
- chambers tend to be sloppy so try neck sizing only if you are full length sizing
- neck size to just a thou or so smaller than your boolit diameter to avoid swaging driving bands
- anneal the necks if you haven't already

Also, some good info here if you haven't seen it:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html

I have had good success with PB boolits loaded over COW though fillers are a controversial issue.

I hope you get it sorted out and shooting well. I really like my Enfields.

I am sure you will get more advice here too, there are lots of knowledgeable people here.

Longbow

[Snafu12]

I neck size with 308 Win die
Flare with Lee universal flare die

[adrians]

hey eka ,,, they must have made two maltby's cos mines a 43 also.

[dualsport]

If it was me I would back up to square one. Try some .312 j bullets in it, mild loads. See how she shoots. Then you'll have a starting point, making sure the gun is up to it first, then the cbs. Then, clean the barrel real good. My Savage #4 doesn't like low velocity loads, keyholes.

[plainsman456]

I have not shot light boolits in my 303 Enfield just 220 grain.
I have had some good groups with RL-7 powder.

[RugerFan]

My No 4 Mk 1/2 loves the NOE 316299 with H4198 or N133. Good accuracy at 1750 fps.

[WineMan]

I would drop the Dacron as AL 2400 is plenty fast and ignites well. If you go to H/IMR 4895 then Dacron is going to be more helpful. Start going up 0.5 grains with 2400 until you get decent accuracy up to 22 grains. Air cooled WW should be soft enough. If accuracy improves then the 4895 route may be the way to go with charges starting in the high 20's with 0.5 grains of Dacron.

Wineman

[waltham41]

hey eka ,,, they must have made two maltby's cos mines a 43 also.

Make that three....

[lister]

Just a thought, check the freebore, 2 grooves are known to do things differently, if the bullet has too much jump to reach the rifling it may not engage properly. I have three no4s a longbranch and savage both 2 groove and an enfield 5 groove only the enfield shoots lead well, all shoot flat based jacketed perfectly but boat tails come out of the two grooves all over the planet like yours.

[303Guy]

Curious. I only have two two-grooves and they both have the same throat design which is a taper from throat entry into the bore - 3° included angle I think. I made a boolit with the same shape. No range testing as yet. I did shoot some patched 180gr Lee's and they shot fine out to about 50yds then went south. Cast boolits went nose first but not in the same line. Those were 220gr heavies. But the bore is not the greatest in the one I was using.

This is the end bit of the barrel.


This is what is tends to do.


But key-holing not.

This is how long a boolit the gun takes. It's tapered from ogive to seating line and engages the rifling its whole length. That might be the key.

[eka]

I'm soaking all of your ideas up and I really appreciate each of you taking the time to share with me your thoughts. Kinda sounds like I've got a pretty good boolit fit with the paper patched 311284. That may not be the most ideal boolit design, but I do have other .30 cal. designs I can try also. From reading some of your posts and the recommended article over at 303british.com, the next logical step seems to be to go to slower powders with better load density such as IMR 4227, Re7, and AA1680 all of which I have on hand. I also intend to experiment with Cream of Wheat (COW) following the recommended charge reduction to compensate for the increase in pressure of course.

I am still all ears and would really appreciate any other suggestions or ideas you may think of.

Again thanks.

[gwpercle]

Eka How does your No. 4 shoot jacketed bullets? If you have not already, try some military or factory ammo to get an idea of how it handles ammo it was designed for. If groups are still poor something is up with the barrel or crown or possibly damage by a cleaning rod to the last 1/2 inch of the muzzel . My experience has been if it wont shoot factory ammo decently getting cast boolits to shoot is not going to be easy. The keyholes mean something is not right big time. I would get the crown refreshed and square with the bore. Even if the crown looks o.k. if not square the boolits leave the barrel unstablized maybe enough to keyhole.

[longbow]

I had another thought too... check the buttstock for tightness.

The Lee Enfield two piece stocks have a habit of having the buttstock come loose. I had to tighten all three of mine. One wasn't real obvious or wiggley or anything but when I got a BIG screwdriver in it I managed to tighten it up considerably.

I made a "screwdriver" by welding a piece of industrial bandsaw blade to a piece of 7/8" round bar and clamp that in a vice then twist the gun/stock to tighten.

Just get the biggest screwdriver you can find and use that if you can't make one.

Longbow

[calgunner]

I have a Savage 2 groove No# 4 that I enjoy to shoot. It has a .304 bore and a .315 groove and I use the 314299 size to .317. I have shot this always to 100 yards target using various powders from fast, medium to slow. At one time I remembered I started to get key holes. When I check my internal ballistics program I found the cause to be to much chamber pressure for the hardness of the lead I was using. So I reduced my charge weight, the key holing stop and I was back on target. Currently I'm using IMR-4350 at 36.0 grains. This puts me around 1900 fps with a chamber pressure about 24,849 psi. The lead hardness of my boolits is 20.9 bhn and rated for for a max chamber pressure of 26,719 psi. The boolit weight about is 206.5 grains and a length, with gas check, at 1.188 inches. Case length is 2.222 and my cartridge over all length is 3.025 inches. Currently this places a 8 inch group at 100 yards. Good but not great as I believe the problem is how I size up the 314299 to .317. I'll find out as I'm in a group buy with NOE for a 316299 mold. Hopes this helps you out.

[calgunner]

I have a Savage 2 groove No# 4 that I enjoy to shoot. It has a .304 bore and a .315 groove and I use the 314299 size to .317. I have shot this always to 100 yards target using various powders from fast, medium to slow. At one time I remembered I started to get key holes. When I check my internal ballistics program I found the cause to be to much chamber pressure for the hardness of the lead I was using. So I reduced my charge weight, the key holing stop and I was back on target. Currently I'm using IMR-4350 at 36.0 grains. This puts me around 1900 fps with a chamber pressure about 24,849 psi. The lead hardness of my boolits is 20.9 bhn and rated for for a max chamber pressure of 26,719 psi. The boolit weight about is 206.5 grains and a length, with gas check, at 1.188 inches. Case length is 2.222 and my cartridge over all length is 3.025 inches. Currently this places a 8 inch group at 100 yards. Good but not great as I believe the problem is how I size up the 314299 to .317. I'll find out as I'm in a group buy with NOE for a 316299 mold. Hopes this helps you out.

[Bret4207]

Have you cleaned this gun yet? I mean really cleaned the barrel of all copper fouling? I'd start there, after shooting some jacketed to see how she shoots. If you cleaned it then I'd consider running a slug through it to see if there is a bulge or tight spot. I'd really take a close look at the muzzle too.

[10x]

I have had No. 4 rifles keyhole - the most common reason is the rifling is washed out at the muzzle or the crown is damaged or off square.
The next most common reason is your bullet is not slightly larger than your bore.

1) clean the barrel - use brake Kleen, then a soak with household ammonia
2) check the muzzle for being square to to bore and check the crown..
3) check the diameter of the barrel at the muzzle - you may have to remove a 1/4 inch.

[JeffinNZ]

The Fat .30 is a Loverin right? If so I have had little joy with such boolits in my two groove.

Two groove barrels are pretty forgiving as they are 5/8 land and 3/8 groove. BUT the clincher will be NOSE support. You need a boolit a stout nose. My CBE moulds are .304/.305 on the nose and shoot very well.