I need Information

[docone31]

Hokay,
I go back and forth between BP, and Paper Patching. I feel BP about to resurface!
I have a Cabelas Traditional Hawken rifle. Twist is 1/48. I have a R.E.A.L., and round ball mold. Works great.
I want to use a Minie'.
I use Lee molds.
I had once gotten a Lee Minie mold for .50cal. That is my caliber. I had to hammer it into the bore rather than push it.
So, my thought is to size one, and paper patch it!
Anybody done this?
What size to presize, and what size to final size?
These I would have to wrap by hand, rather than use my cigarette roller. Rather than snipping my tail, I presume I could stuff it into the base.
Any info on this?

[cwskirmisher]

Hokay,
I go back and forth between BP, and Paper Patching. I feel BP about to resurface!
I have a Cabelas Traditional Hawken rifle. Twist is 1/48. I have a R.E.A.L., and round ball mold. Works great.
I want to use a Minie'.
I use Lee molds.
I had once gotten a Lee Minie mold for .50cal. That is my caliber. I had to hammer it into the bore rather than push it.
So, my thought is to size one, and paper patch it!
Anybody done this?
What size to presize, and what size to final size?
These I would have to wrap by hand, rather than use my cigarette roller. Rather than snipping my tail, I presume I could stuff it into the base.
Any info on this?

A hollow-based minie is not meant to be patched. If you size it down to .002 under bore so that is is a slip fit, and lube it with an appropriate BP lube, it should shoot accurately as long as you don't over power it (more than 100 grains of BP). If you had to hammer it down, then it also sounds like it was also too hard - only pure lead should be used for the minies, and no patch required.

[Maven]

"A hollow-based minie is not meant to be patched. If you size it down to .002 under bore so that is is a slip fit, and lube it with an appropriate BP lube, it should shoot accurately as long as you don't over power it...." cwskirmisher

docone31, I have to agree with cwskirmisher's advice and wish to add this: If you size the oversize Minie so that it's a slip fit in your bbl., do so with a nose first sizer such as the Lee. You may be able to remount a Lyman or RCBS H & I die in your lube-sizer to accomplish this as well. (Bruce B. described how he did this several years ago.) I found that sizing a pure Pb Minie base first expanded it so much that I could hardly start or seat it in my rifle (had to use a hammer). Accuracy, if that's the right term, which wasn't ideal to begin with, only got worse as a result.

Btw, I have paper patched undersize Lee REAL's to fit the same rifle and got a marked improvement in accuracy @ 50yd. Groups shrank almost by half, but 2" - 2.5" @ 50yd. just wasn't acceptable to me.

[slamminsammy]

I have never had much luck with the Lee minies either. I bought the Lee target minie thinkin it might work better than the regular ones but you have to shoot it with a light load or it blows the skirt out too. I read where someone turned down the core to make the skirt thicker and had good luck with it.

[idahoron]

Here is my take on it. It works!
Here is my Lee Improved Minie sized with a Lee .446 but it measures more like .444



Here it is with two wraps of 9# onion skin.




I wrap them and then I size them to .451 this is magic in my Green Mountain .451 barrel on my Hot Rod Hawkens.



I have had luck with over powder wads and without. This group is with cleaning between each shot.



I shot this group about a week ago. It is in the sub 2" range which is my minimum I try for. I am going to test this load more but I am hopeful that that this load will stay in the sub 2" range with three shots no cleaning between shots. I would like to get the load to shoot sub 2" groups no cleaning for 5 shots.



I am going to say that paper patching a minie DOES work. It does require that you have the right twist in your barrel, and sizers to pull it off. I am also custom mixing my lead to get the hardness just the way I want it. If your willing to experiment it is a good way to go. Ron

[Baron von Trollwhack]

idahoron is correct . His work shows great results. I have always considered that sizing a minie' was a necessity for roundness and naked fit to the barrel for good accuracy and a paper patched one should also be sized first as the patch done correctly will give you the fit necessary.

BvT

[cwskirmisher]

Idahoron, that certainly is good work, but I have to ask - why bother with a pp on a minie at all? What does the pp actually accomplish that a properly sized minie can't on its own? Am I wrong to assume that the function of a pp is to take up the space of an otherwise undersized boolit so it better fits the grooves properly? A hollow-based minie is supposed to be undersized by design, and the base expands into the rifling upon firing sealing the bore. I am ignorant of things paper-patched, so forgive my novice inquiry.

[idahoron]

Why bother at all? Well I would say that pictures say a thousand words. :^)
The best reason to paper patch is accuracy, naked minie's don't normally shoot sub 1" groups or even sub 2"groups at 100 yards with peep sights.
When paper patching any bullet, the lead never touches the barrel , so there is never an issue with leading. I have seen lead build up in rifles and it never enhances accuracy. And if a shooters cleaning practices don't focus on the removal of lead. The accuracy a lot of guys see in the beginning starts to deteriorates over time.
The paper also keeps the bullet on the charge. For safety this is important thing while hunting.
The thought behind using a paper patch is not to just be able to use an undersized bullet. It is to keep the flame from the powder and the metal of the barrel from disfiguring the bullet. That leads to increased accuracy.
The hollow base still expands when the bullet is shot but NOW it is protected. Where the paper patching really shines is consistency. Again that leads to accuracy.
Ron

[slamminsammy]

That rifle and minie both look SWEET! Whats the hardness of that minie Idahoron? Or is that info "top secret"? LOL!

[idahoron]

No it is not a top secret. I have a Cabine tree hardness tester. It uses a dial indicator for hardness. I target .032 to .038 this translated is 6 to 7 BHN. 5 BHN is pure so I am bumping them just a pinch and I do that with reclaimed lead shot. I found this hardness when I was paper patching my 500 S&W bullets for my 50 cal muzzleloader.
For my .458 renegade I am thinking about bumping the hardness up to the 8 or 9 BHN range.
Ron

[slamminsammy]

Thanks Idahoron! I was just wondering cuz i have a lot of maxis casted at about 7 BHN but havent tried them out much.(just loaded one to see how hard it went down) Hoping that they shoot good gotta bunch of lead thats around that hardness. Them casting directions that come with the molds always says use pure? When your new at it like me it kinda causes concern to deviate away from them.

[idahoron]

It is hard to say with that bullet but I think 7 BHN is plenty soft for a conical. I would try a over powder wad with them to protect the base of the bullet. Ron

[docone31]

Lots of good stuff here.
I originally tried the Lee Minie' but I had to hammer it down the bore. I did not really care for that. I do like paper patching though.
Ron, is that for a .50? I also like the sight set up. Which front sight did you use?
I been trying to make my Hawken style rifle good for older eyes. I have recently put the adjustable buckhorn Hawken sight on the barrel. I was able to set it back a bit and that seems to help.

[idahoron]

That Minie was actually a 45. Like I said above I size them with my .446 sizer die wrap them with two wraps of 9# onion skin and size them again to .451 and they are ready to shoot.
The front sight is a Lyman 17 AML globe with a Lee Shavers BPCR insert. When I am hunting I read the range finder and set the sight for that yardage. If it says 125 I set it for 125 and hold dead on. If it is 175 I set the sight for 175 and hold dead on.
Ron

[idahoron]

cwskirmisher, you asked why paper patch. Here is a target that I shot with my .458 Renegade. I think this one says it again why I paper Patch. I shot the group on the bottom without paper. I did size them to .457 for ease of loading. The paper patched bullets were sized to .451 then wrapped. I sized them again to .451 with the paper on. Ron