going to start making 224 swaging dies

[danr]

if someone went beyond instructions, beyond normal practices of reloading, even ignored DISCLAMERS in the instructions, then went further to JAM a .230 into a case, and found a way to chamber it.. then i guess that person gets what they get. reloading isant for dummies, and neither is making bullets.

the disclamers alone in the instructions negates all liabilities to me and my company.. my lawier would have a field day with anyone who attempts to challenge it.. and he's up for the task.. this is what i pay him for.

as for the GAP or seperation, i'm done with this subject. i've said what i need to say, i've proven in several ways that it doesn't affect accuracy.. i have yet to see any proof otherwise other than some "quotes" from corbin's MARKETING lititure.

"the WORLD IS ROUND i tells yea".. oh but, if you resize a bullet you'll fall off the face of the earth.. common guys.. i've been shooting home made bullets for a very long time. its not rocket science like the marketing books make it out to be.

if you dont challenge what you read, you'll never know if its true or false and you'll never be enlightened.


dan

[danr]

i wonder, has any of you considered reheating a swaged bullet to remove ALL possibilties of seperation?! there's always that possibility. this falls back onto speer's double swaged hot core bullets that he started back in 1961. back before they had LASER alignments and CNC LATHES.

you could also put cannelures onto your bullets to prevent this even further.

if core seperation is your concern, then there are ways you can overcome this and still use less expensive dies. its not the end of the world

[danr]

lets not forget history.

speer originally made the double swage hot core system so that it makes a perfect bond between the jacket and the core.. it was done to prevent seperation of the jacket and bullet ON IMPACT. by doing a hot core, they removed the OXIDE layer between the lead and the jacket.. this resulted in a great hunting bullet..

this is the TRUE source of why bullets should have a good bond between jacket and core..

not that its dangerous to have it other wise.. not that its inaccurate. but because of the impact properties of the bullet, and the lack of oxidization layer helps accuracy to be more predictable.

an innacurate bullet isant a bad bullet.. its an unpredictable bullet that is bad.


Sitation " Speer #9" Page 13

"the double-swaged, hot core method of construction is exclusive with speer, and is used in the manufacture of most soft point rifle bullets. the core is injected into a surgically clean, controlled expansion jackets, eliminating the possibility of lubricant between the core and jacket and allowing no time for an oxide film to form between the core and jacket. the process promotes a tight bond between core and jacket, ASSURING A NON-SLIP CORE, RESULTING IN PENETRATION WITHOUT CORE-JACKET SEPERATION."

[xfoxofshogo]

so true i have shot a lot of ammo where the cores come out of the jackets a pond in-pack but the 224 i have made and shot have not done this

[MightyThor]

Dan, if you can consistently turn out dies that point bullets at .230, why can't you do the same thing at .224? Not sure I understand the problem unless it is just having to get a different reamer than the one you have been using. You may have already answered this question, but I missed it in nearly 50 pages of posts.

[danr]

Dan, if you can consistently turn out dies that point bullets at .230, why can't you do the same thing at .224? Not sure I understand the problem unless it is just having to get a different reamer than the one you have been using. You may have already answered this question, but I missed it in nearly 50 pages of posts.

the problem is with wandering. the smaller you go the more wander you get as you go further into the die. getting a smaller reamer will only make matters worse.

at a blank cavity size of .223 - .222 the production company has an error rate of 20 - 30%, and run the risk of breaking a $200 reamer when the error happens.

at .225 the error rate dramatically drops to 1%. mainly because they can use a slightly larger step drills to make the cavity.

but, at .225/.226 the risk of someone seating an unsized bullet was too great.. we decided to take it to .227/.228 to ensure seating couldn't be possible. it also eliminated the error all together, so that all blanks could be used and the risk of breaking a carbide reamer wasn't there as well.

thanks,
Dan

[xfoxofshogo]

[xfoxofshogo]

[xfoxofshogo]

[xfoxofshogo]

mm i think if i was getting them hot to melt them i would not be able to cut them like this and ya i got a new cam

[pcarpenter]

I didn't mean to suggest that the whole bullet would get hot enough to melt lead. Obviously the lead would go running out if that were the case. Rather, I was talking about subtle melting just at the surface for a fraction of a second, creating the chance for smearing.

There really wasn't enough resolution in the posted copy of that image to do this, but I didn't let that stop me...

Here is a portion of that same image blown up 200% to create a scale a little closer to the ones posted by NoZombies. You can see small amounts of separation (gaps) at the base. Again, it's small (maybe a thousandth or two) and it's not everywhere so it may not be a huge big deal. Clearly though, if there is any gap, then the bullet to core tension that is desired is not there. Note that what's in question is not separation at impact....that's totally fine since these are varmint bullets and the bullet coming apart after it hits has no effect on accuracy up to that point. The separation that's being discussed with regard to accuracy (this is an accuracy question, not a safety issue) is one that allows the core to shift inside the jacket so that the whole thing is no longer the (hopefully) perfect shape of the original die that made it.

[gnoahhh]

All of this discussion about adding a step to final-size the bullets has given me an idea. Since I shoot an old Savage .22 High Power a lot that takes .228 diameter bullets, would any of you guys be willing to sell me a handful left at that diameter, skipping the final re-size, to try out? If they work, I might spring for a set of dies, or just pay someone to make me .228's to help them defray the cost of their dies. PM me if interested! (See, there is a silver lining to every cloud!)

Gary

[martin]

gnoahhh,

I would be very cautious here in that the .22 High power is .227 caliber and is a high pressure round (about 55,000 psi). Danr, in his post of 8/4/11 indicates that the point forming die is a diameter of .230 . This could potentially result in some very high pressures.

Martin

[gnoahhh]

I'm referring to the posts where some guys were getting .228" bullets before the final sizing. Also, A) the .22HP is nominally .228, although some bullet manufacturers fielded .227's, and B) it is most certainly not a "high pressure" round, being in the same family as the .25/35, .30/30, and .303 Savage. Perhaps you're thinking of something else? My Savage Model 1899H has a bore which slugged at .228. Some friend's guns vary a little, but by and large reported bore diameters fall within the tolerances one would expect from rifled bores in factory rifles from the pre-WWI era.

I stand by my offer to purchase a sampling of .228 diameter jacketed bullets!

[oldscool]

There are plenty of pictures of "sawed-off"boolits.
How bout somebody show some 100 and 200 yd groups?

[xfoxofshogo]

I didn't mean to suggest that the whole bullet would get hot enough to melt lead. Obviously the lead would go running out if that were the case. Rather, I was talking about subtle melting just at the surface for a fraction of a second, creating the chance for smearing.

There really wasn't enough resolution in the posted copy of that image to do this, but I didn't let that stop me...

Here is a portion of that same image blown up 200% to create a scale a little closer to the ones posted by NoZombies. You can see small amounts of separation (gaps) at the base. Again, it's small (maybe a thousandth or two) and it's not everywhere so it may not be a huge big deal. Clearly though, if there is any gap, then the bullet to core tension that is desired is not there. Note that what's in question is not separation at impact....that's totally fine since these are varmint bullets and the bullet coming apart after it hits has no effect on accuracy up to that point. The separation that's being discussed with regard to accuracy (this is an accuracy question, not a safety issue) is one that allows the core to shift inside the jacket so that the whole thing is no longer the (hopefully) perfect shape of the original die that made it.

lol thats the angle i have on it it looks like it but it not in the outher pic of the same cut but still thats nuthing at all even if it is a gap and its one out of how meny ?? so ya go cut some store bulits and see if you see it i will if i get time

[xfoxofshogo]

gnoahhh,

I would be very cautious here in that the .22 High power is .227 caliber and is a high pressure round (about 55,000 psi). Danr, in his post of 8/4/11 indicates that the point forming die is a diameter of .230 . This could potentially result in some very high pressures.

Martin

The 22 Savage High Power enjoyed considerable popularity through the early 1900's. Unfortunately, like some later high velocity 22's, it did not prove very accurate in some lever action rifles chambered for it. The bullets then available may have held some share of the blame. It was originally advertised as a small game and deer cartridge, but it quickly proved to be rather undependable for the latter. Nonetheless, the 22 Savage High Power was used in Africa and Asia on such unlikely beasts as lion and tiger, with some glowing reports on effectiveness. It is a perfectly adequate small game and varmint cartridge, but no big game number by any standard. It has been rendered obsolete by new and much improved modern cartridges such as the 222 Remington. For single shot rifles, most modern shooters prefer the 225 Winchester because of the availability of ammunition and cases, plus the fact that the 225 uses standard .224" diameter bullets, as opposed to the .228" bullets of the 22 Savage.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Redirected from .22 Savage Hi-Power)





5.6x52mmR



Type

Rifle



Place of origin

United States



Production history



Designer

Charles Newton



Manufacturer

Savage Arms
Norma (company)
Sellier & Bellot
Wolf Ammunition



Produced

1912



Variants

.22 Marciante Blue Streak[1]



Specifications



Parent case

.25-35 Winchester



Case type

Bottleneck, Rimmed



Bullet diameter

.227 in (5.8 mm)



Neck diameter

.252 in (6.4 mm)



Shoulder diameter

.360 in (9.1 mm)



Base diameter

.416 in (10.6 mm)



Rim diameter

.500 in (12.7 mm)



Case length

2.05 in (52 mm)



Overall length

2.51 in (64 mm)



Rifling twist

12



Primer type

large rifle



Ballistic performance



Bullet weight/type

Velocity

Energy



90 gr (5.8 g)

3,100 ft/s (940 m/s)

1,920 ft·lbf (2,600 J)



Source(s): Barnes, Frank C. "Cartridges of the World." Digest Books, Inc. 3rd Edition: 1972


The 5.6x52mmR cartridge was created by Charles Newton and produced by Savage Arms in 1912. It is also known as the .22 Savage High-Power and .22 "Imp", and is based upon the .25-35 Winchester cartridge necked down to accept a .227in/.228in diameter bullet.

Its inherent accuracy, relatively high velocity and "shocking" power led to an initial surge of popularity, and the "Imp" was attributed with almost magical killing powers even on large and dangerous soft-skinned game such as tigers. However, following a well-publicized spate of fatalities and severe injuries among big game hunters who had merely wounded their quarry with the "Imp's" small, speedy bullets, the cartridge rapidly fell out of favor with safari and deer hunters. Some small-pest shooters in the USA have continued to use it into the 21st century, although the caliber fell into gradual disfavor in the United States shortly after World War I.

No ammunition or mass-market rifle-making company in the U.S. produces the .22SHP as of 2007, either as a cartridge or a factory chambering. Norma (company), Sellier & Bellot, and Wolf Ammunition (through their "gold" line) still manufacture ammunition for the European market, and export it to the U.S. In the 5.6x52mmR designation this cartridge remains significant among hunters in Europe, where it is often a chambering in drillings and similar combination guns.

[xfoxofshogo]

There are plenty of pictures of "sawed-off"boolits.
How bout somebody show some 100 and 200 yd groups?

this will be on the review pages

[martin]

Gnoahhh and xfoxofshogo,

Ok, ya got me going again…..

I may have overstated the pressure a little at 55,000 but 50,000 psi is about where the cartridge is spec’d. Although in a brief search of my library, I could not find any loading data for the 5.6 X 52, similar cartridges launching 70 grain bullets at 3100 fps were in this pressure range. Pressures are lilely higher for the 90 grain reference at 3100 fps in Cartridges of the World. I would consider this cartridge to have a fairly high case capacity for a .227 or .228 diameter bullet. Although not super high pressure, I would say that that 50,000 PSI is fairly high. Agreed?

I know that you can load them down but a lot of guys are also crazy about full loads.

In terms of what Gnoahhh is planning, I was not questioning that you knows what he is doing based on what he has described. I am always safety conscious when it comes to guns and gun related – drilled into me as a young shooter and gunsmith. I stand by what I said - to proceed with caution. Note that some have reported producing intermediate bullets in the .230 range and that .002 would raise pressures significantly even in reduced loads.

I have seen first hand a couple of rifles come apart and it wasn’t good. It only takes about 150,000 PSI to reach the yield strength of the material in the action and barrel. Look at it this way, if I didn’t say anything and something bad happened, what kind of person would I be?

Best regards and stay safe,
Martin

[xfoxofshogo]

O THAT WAS ALL THE DATA I FOUND ON IT ITS CUT PAST OFF THE SITE THEIR NOT MY WORDS
i just cant fine 22 HP in my book so i look it up i never even seen one but its safe to say that if some .227 and 228 are out their that a lone in of its self makes me want to Mic ever round i buy if just one ends up in a pack of 224 yes it will be bad

the point being we are not kids so do not treat us like kids if your doing reloading you know what your doing and shod be able to think for your self im not pushing my vew on you so do not push your vew on me im done with this its geting to the point of being stuip WE ARE NOT KIDS and this in my last post here in this thread

Thanks